Queens University Event
Filed under News, Sexuality & Gender on October 14th, 2008 by Marcus French
On the night of October 13th, 2008, an event was held at Queens University in Charlotte, North Carolina entitled “The Intersection of Sexuality and Faith.” The documentary For the Bible Tells Me So was shown, followed by audience interaction with seven panelists representing various Christian viewpoints on how faith and homosexuality relate to one another. 155 people attended the event at Sykes Auditorium, with the majority of the audience consisting of college students and the remainder made up of interested community members and local activists.
For the Bible Tells Me So
The night started with a showing of the documentary For the Bible Tells Me So directed by Daniel G. Karslake. Stylistically, the film was a straightforward documentary with very little shock value and rather tame dialogue, but its potential to propagate the activist homosexual agenda it presents should not be underestimated. In fact, it may be that run-of-the-mill style that is its greatest asset. As Mel White, leader of Soul Force, recounted in the film, being normal may be the key to changing the world:
When I was on Larry King Live, somebody called in and said, ‘What do you guys do in bed?’ Larry hung up on him and said, ‘that’s none of your business.’ And I said, ‘We’ve been together in the same bed for 24 years – we’re like everybody else, we sleep in bed. And King said: ‘Once they find out you’re as boring as we are, it’s all over.’
Christians that oppose homosexuality are throughout the film given the feel of being “fringe”, while the pro-homosexuality crowd is consistently shown to be the mainstream. Rather than shocking you with radical new ideas, the film leads you down a road that makes you feel as though nobody with a heart and half a brain could ever disagree with its thesis. Wild images of in-your-face gay pride events are nowhere to be found in this film. What’s portrayed is a kinder, gentler homosexuality that surely any modern person would agree with.
The film tells the story of various Christian families and how they reacted to the news that their children were gay, or as the film’s website describes it: “Through the experiences of five very normal, very Christian, very American families — including those of former House Majority Leader Richard Gephardt and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson — we discover how insightful people of faith handle the realization of having a gay child.” Interspersed throughout the film are interviews with Jewish and Christian religious authorities sharing their two cents on what the Bible has to say about homosexuality, and even a short cartoon starring a character named Christian. Below is the actual cartoon from the movie. Take a look and prepare to be “enlightened” (the cartoon is worth exposing point by point, but we’ll save that for a later VOR article):
The film contained plenty of radical redefinitions of religious ideas, such as what Leviticus 20:18 REALLY meant (it was about the need for expanding Israel’s population), why Sodom was REALLY destroyed (they weren’t hospitable enough), as well as what God REALLY thinks about divorce and adultery. Consider the words of Dick Gephardt’s daughter, who decided while married to her husband that “If I want to be happy, it’s going to mean losing my family… and that’s the decision I’m going to have to make.” Also consider how Bishop Gene Robinson is portrayed in the film. Not long after Bishop Robinson recounts how he divorced his wife so that she could find a heterosexual man and he can find a homosexual man, an act which he believed was in a strange way “living up” to his marriage vows, an interviewee proclaims that “Gene Robinson is the embodiment of the love of God.” One wonders how they came to their conclusions on what the Christian God really wants when it was the historical Jesus of Nazereth who proclaimed “I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
The queerest thing about the movie, however, had very little to do with sexuality or marriage. The thing that really stood out was the fact that James Dobson of Focus on the Family is clearly portrayed as the villain in the film. Now every good story needs a bad guy, but James Dobson? During the pinnacle of the movie, a protest at Focus on the Family’s headquarters, one protester declares “James Dobson began as a wonderful family counselor. Now he has become a danger to himself and to others.” A danger to himself and to others? Brings up images of someone in a padded cell with a straightjacket on, doesn’t it? So what was Dr. Dobson’s great crime? According to the film it was encouraging parents of gay children to hope for and seek change in their child’s sexuality. An issue worth discussing further? Sure. Warrant for portraying someone alongside images of Hitler and the KKK? Hardly. Whether or not it was fair to demonize Dobson as the film did, the tactic seemed to work with the audience in Sykes Auditorium, as the sound of people crying with Kleenex firmly in hand could be clearly heard during the showdown between police and a gay activist’s family outside of Dobson’s headquarters in Colorado.
The Panel Discussion
With the audience thoroughly primed with sympathy for the movie and the homosexual cause it champions, the panel discussion formed at the front of the room. The participants were:
- Pastor Mike Deal of Cross and Crown Lutheran Church
- Dr. Michael Brown of FIRE School of Ministry
- Rev. Dr. Chris Ayers of Wedgewood Baptist Church
- “Roberta” of Charlotte Gender Alliance
- Pastor Michael Stevens of University City Church
- Pastor Derek Radney of Calvary Baptist Church
- Rev. Catherine Houchins of Metropolitan Community Church of Charlotte
Opening remarks were allowed to all, with Pastor Deal, Rev. Ayers, “Roberta” (quotation marks used because she was a transgender man dressed as a woman), and Rev. Houchins praising the film and telling their own stories of acceptance of homosexuality, or in Ms. Houchins case, of being a lesbian. Dr. Brown, Pastor Stevens, and Pastor Radney expressed in their remarks compassion for the homosexual community, but concern over the agenda and theology the film presented. Dr. Brown gave the clearest rebuke of the film, exposing the film’s agenda and its effect on the audience by stating:
As far as accuracy, it was no more accurate than a KKK report on Barack Obama, okay? Sitting here watching it, I felt like I was a Jew watching Nazi propaganda, watching people shaped and molded by massive untruths. I mean, the guy talked about fifth grade Bible reading, it would be nice if they got to Kindergarten level.
…
What happened was a shifting in many of your hearts, towards hatred, towards bigotry, towards intolerance, towards smashing the Bible, towards smashing people that follow Jesus.
With the opening remarks complete and the atmosphere of the room noticeably different, various questions from the audience were asked of the panel dealing with homosexuality and faith. The key question of the night came when the panel was asked “Is it okay to pick and choose what we believe in the Bible?” To which Rev. Ayers responded with the statement “it’s impossible to believe all the Bible,” and Pastor Stevens said with reference to the Bible that “either we grasp it and embrace it as an authority, or we just kind of put it on the shelf like any other fairy tale with a bunch of warm and fuzzy Bible characters.”
Following this was a response by Pastor Deal that sparked a heated exchange between himself, Dr. Brown, and Rev. Ayers. Deal declared that “the Bible knows absolutely nothing about same-sex committed relationships,” and after referencing the Church’s persecution of Galileo due to his belief that the Earth revolved around the Sun, said “when knowledge changes, we change.” Rev. Ayers added with reference to the Bible that “I want you to read it and look at all the horrific texts, the, in my opinion, un-Christian things going in it, there is some horrible stuff going on in the text.” This was followed by Dr. Brown who rebutted Deal’s assertions by saying that “scripture explicitly speaks about men having sex with men,” noting that the Greco-Roman world was familiar with long-term homosexual relationships, and that the Galileo episode as related by Deal was greatly exaggerated. While Brown spoke, Deal voiced opposition and shook his head in disagreement. Dr. Brown ended by looking at the audience and declaring:
People up here are going to tell you what’s good and bad about the Bible, which means… who needs the Bible? Use a phone book and make up your own mind, because the scripture has no voice or authority anymore, that’s what these fellows are leaving you with, that’s the problem.
Before the night was out, another interesting set of circumstances arose in which Matt Comer, Editor of Q-Notes, an LGBT news source, stood up in the crowd and told his story of growing up gay and Baptist in Winston-Salem, recounting an event of particular importance that happened to him: “I went to Calvary Baptist Church one time, and was chased down the hall and people threw rocks at me because I’m gay.” Yes, that is the same Calvary Baptist Church that panelist Derek Radney is a pastor of, and yes, that is the same Matt Comer that published an article in Q-Notes that contained the adjacent picture of Dr. Brown’s head pasted on what appears to be a machine-gun toting Muslim terrorists’ body.
In response to Mr. Comer’s statements, both Brown and Radney voiced opposition to violence and hatred towards the homosexual community, with Brown calling for an end to hatred from the homosexual community towards conservative Christians and the ex-gay community. Dr. Brown also pointed out that when he allowed him to share his story at a 2007 FIRE Church event, Matt met with nothing but love from the church community. Matt acknowledged this, but pointed out that it was the only time he had experienced love at a conservative church such as FIRE. Dr. Brown proceeded to challenge this double standard, since Matt went on to print the inflammatory article mentioned previously, which showed little fairness to Brown.
Final Thoughts
Queens University should be applauded for holding this film showing followed by a panel discussion, and they should in particular be applauded for inviting those that disagree with the film’s viewpoint to take part. One wonders why it was so difficult for Mr. Karslake to find anybody of the caliber of Dr. Brown, Pastor Stevens, or Pastor Radney to have any significant screen time in his movie to provide a clear voice from the other side of the issue, when it seemed so easy for Queens to arrange!
In the midst of strong delusion, Dr. Brown was able to provide a clear prophetic voice that exposed the lies put forth by the activist homosexual community for what they are. Let’s pray for him as he continues in that which God has called him to, and let’s inform ourselves that we might be able to be a light in darkness concerning these issues as well. Two resources to consider are the Can You Be Gay and Christian? lecture series, and the Homosexuality, the Church, and Society lecture series.
Tags: faith, for the bible tells me so, queens university, Sexuality & Gender, the bible
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I am delighted for people like Dr. Brown who have the knowledge and understanding to refute the arguments that seem to arise about present day vs. the days of the Bible. Most of us could be swayed into doubt about how life was back then, if we do not have the historical knowledge to back it up. I love how Dr. Brown can refrain from getting aggressive and yet so strong and able to back it up with facts. It is amazing how this movement can elicit such sympathy when it is clearly an abomination in the sight of God. I do not support violence against the homosexual community, but the public opinion is so easily swayed to believe the popular ideas because the church has become more of a business than a prophetic platform to speak God’s truths into the atmosphere regardless of the popular vote. God does not change and adjust Himself to popular opinion! He is the ultimate authority on EVERYTHING! God help those who cannot seem to comprehend the Sovereignty of God! We need to come into agreement with His ways, not the other way around. Our very eternity depends upon it!
Pastor Rob Reid, Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Thank GD for Dr. Brown. He is speaking truth but unfortunately, people don’t always want the truth nor do they want to follow truth. It is a sad time in American when GDly people are being ridiculed for their faith in GD and HIS word. May GD have mercy on us all for straying so far from what HE has told us in HIS word. Shalom, Judi
I do believe Dr.Brown is one of a hand full of believers trying to educate and debate those that could potentially be of the household of Israel. The difference between Brown and Paul (Bible) or even Stephen is that they would have rebuked the lifestyle of homosexuality out rightly and would clearly state that their pearls (good news) should not be debated or wasted on pigs (sin). Sometimes rebuke (hiding) causes dry ground to crack for a seed to then take root.
Andre,
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I was at the event and found that Dr. Brown was clear and uncompromising in what he had to say. No one at the event could have been confused about what Dr. Brown thought about homosexuality. Since you say that the good news should not be debated, what are your thoughts regarding Paul in Acts 9:29 which says(referencing Paul) that “He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him”? (Incidentally, while no one was about to literally kill Dr. Brown, it was clear that he was the most unpopular person on the panel from the second he opened his mouth.) Or Acts 18:28 which says that Paul “vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ”?
Several things: The Q-Notes piece was not an “article.” That is misleading. The piece was an opinion column. Big difference between an “article” and an “opinion column.”
I didn’t necessarily say that what I felt at FIRE was just one time in my life that I experienced love at a conservative church. I did say that was just one experience out of many.
Dr. Brown’s contention during the panel that Q-Notes later issued an apology for the opinion column is false. Q-Notes issued a clarification on one piece of information contained in the opinion column. Nonetheless, our opinion didn’t change as backed up by our interpretation of his violent and militant-like rhetoric as used in his books and by his readers.
Matt,
Thanks for writing. A few quick responses:
First , there was no intent to mislead in referring to your piece as an “article,” and nowhere did you state that you were stating opinions rather than facts.
Second, the Queens University event was recorded on DVD, so we can see exactly what you did say. Those who heard you were under the clear impression that you claimed never to have experienced love in a Christian church, which I rebutted with your experience at FIRE, which you claimed was the only time that ever happened. Again, we’ll get the transcript and print it out for you.
Third, Q-Notes had to issue a retraction for a misquote and expressed regret for that. Is that not an apology? Or was there no regret for publishing something that was blatantly false?
Fourth, as pointed out my letter to the editor of Q-Notes (which I reproduce here), I was completely and willfully misrepresented in your article. The facts and the testimony of my life speak for themselves.
Here’s the letter to the editor:
http://www.q-notes.com/editorial/lettertoeditor_030808.html
No hatred on my lips
The recent correction to Matt Comer’s Jan. 26, 2008, editorial (“Holy War: ‘a cause worth dying for’”) is a step in the right direction, but in the interest of truth and fairness, Q-Notes readers need a more accurate picture of who I am and what I represent.
First, I abhor religious violence and would personally defend the GLBT community against it. Second, I have never called for a “holy war against homosexuals” or urged people to fight them to the death. God forbid! Third, my book, “Revolution: The Call to Holy War,” which came out in 2000 and is over 300 pages, barely mentions homosexuality. Its whole purpose was to call Christians to follow Jesus’ non-violent example, putting down the swords of violence, anger and hatred and giving themselves to change the world. It called for a “holy war” of love, compassion and truth. However, since the tragic events of Sept. 11, 2001, and the radical Islamic use of the term “holy war,” I have not used this term, speaking instead of the need for a non-violent, compassionate, “Jesus revolution.”
Finally, the reason there is no hatred on my lips when addressing the GLBT community is not because I am following a carefully crafted, deceptive script. Rather, it is because there is no hatred in my heart. Although we are deeply divided on many social, moral and spiritual issues, I hope we can hold to these differences without rancor and hatred.
— Dr. Michael Brown
Concord, N.C.
Dr. Brown is right that we issued a correction. It can be viewed at the bottom of my Feb. 9, 2008 opinion column at:
http://www.q-notes.com/editorial/editorsnote_020908.html
I do apologize for the old website that was in use before I began my tenure. It is hard to navigate and finding what your looking for can be difficult at times. Perhaps we’ll find a way some day to better archive those older writings.
From the exchange in question:
Dr. Michael Brown: “You also know that last year you were invited among others to come to our church and we gave you the mic to share your whole testimony and you had the love and you know it … Nobody hated on you and nobody threw rocks on you. What shocks me…”
Matt Comer: “One experience out of many. One experience out of many in my life.”
Dr. Michael Brown: “[inaudible ] But when you said it’s never there, that’s just one little piece of [inaudible] Everywhere I’ve gone around the world I see the love and compassion. The ugly stuff you speak of, I’ll stand side-by-side with you and speak against it. If someone came to attack you my body would be between yours and them, in Jesus’ name.”
I know I was angry that night. I’m angry many, many times. Immediately when I sat down after speaking, I knew I was wrong for being so angry. I admitted as much to Calvary’s Pastor Radney after the panel. I felt such guilt about that anger for at least two days afterward. I just hope people understand why those emotions exist.
Interrupting you… that was wrong. I did it twice while you were speaking. I had my turn and interrupted you. And I apologize now, publicly.
But that doesn’t diminish the strong feelings I have about this subject. What bothers me about your ministry is the way in which you go about doing it. For me, your words bring up very harmful and painful memories of my childhood. I’m sure it is the same with many other LGBT people. What I’ve yet to sense you understand is my concern over what I see as your militant-like rhetoric. The gut-wrenching reaction I feel when I read some of your work is very similar to the same type of reaction I have every time I hear little children sing “I’m in the Lord’s Army,” or a congregation join in “Onward Christian soldier.” (And, yes, I know these songs — to this day. I sang them when I was a child.)
And, I’ve yet to see any clear evidence that you aren’t connected with Flip Benham and Operation Save America. Their style of “preaching” is more reprehensible to me than almost anything you could do. They certainly drive more souls away from Christ than they bring into the fold, for sure.
Perhaps you and I differ on what kind of movement Christ’s church should take. If so, I’m more than sure we both have our theological reasons as to why. (Although I will be completely upfront and acknowledge I’d never win a theological debate with you, as I haven’t the training or knowledge.)
Let me tell you a story:
When I was on the Equality Ride in Spring 2007, we made a stop at Oklahoma Baptist University. The one thing I thought I’d never see in my lifetime were church leaders actively stopping anyone from attending a church service. We were told the night before that Oklahoma Baptist would not let us attend their weekday chapel service, held in their campus church (I say “church,” even though they say “campus chapel,” because it serves the exact same function, whichever words you use).
I told the group of my peers that night, “Oh, there’s no way they won’t let us participate in the worship service. I’m Baptist, they’re Baptist. I know Baptists — we don’t keep people out of church.”
The next morning it was repeated again on the bus as we headed to the campus. I turned to a friend and again said, “If I know my Baptists, they’ll let us at least participate in the service.”
We got off the bus and a school official was waiting for us. He told us that we would not be allowed to enter the chapel. Again, I turned to a friend, “Once we are standing in front of that church, there’s no way they could stand to keep us away from the presence of God.”
Sure enough, as we headed toward the chapel, a school official and police officer kept us from approaching. As I slowly made my way from the imposing building, I began to cry — uncontrollably. Not a slight sobbing, but an uncontrollable wailing.
This is just one of the majority of times in my life where I have been cast aside by my fellow Christian brothers and sisters. Did they pray about this decision? Were their hearts that cold? How they could stand before God and explain their rejection of a group of people wanting to have a genuine participation in a worship service instituted in His name is beyond me.
When will conservative Christian leaders understand that there are real men and women who, like me, believe whole-heartedly and to the deepest parts of our soul that there is a God and that His Christ is our savior? This rejection of our lives belittles our very real, many times very difficult and life-altering experiences with our Father.
The complete and utter rejection of gay and lesbian people by the people of God is a problem. A major problem. Whatever a person’s beliefs, I wish I saw more Christian men and women of God taking a stand against this outright rejection. Undoubtedly, there is a part of me that has immense respect for you, Dr. Brown. Perhaps that is the reason why I hound you so much. Perhaps you are the person who could do more to put a salve over the huge, gaping wound that exists among Christ’s followers.
[...] My lengthy response from our latest exchange below. [...]
Matt,
I appreciate you humbling yourself on this website publicly, and I accept your apology. Be assured, though, that I was not in the least bit offended that you interrupted me, and my greater concern was for your well-being. As for your comments about “one in many,” what I took you to mean was that this was the one time you met with love in a church as opposed to the many times you met with the opposite. Wasn’t this what you meant?
As for the militant language which concerns you, it is found in the Bible, since Paul calls his fellow-workers “soldiers,” and “warfare” imagery is found in many places in the Scriptures. But it is totally spiritual language — Jesus explicitly told Peter to put his sword away, since those who live by the sword die by the sword — and it is the language of militant love. That’s why you met with love when you came to FIRE, and that’s why you need to listen to the hearts of the people who use warfare language rather than interpreting it as a personal attack or, God forbid, a call to physical violence.
I know you’ve been hurt by “Christians,” and you know that I deplore that. But can you step back and realize that you are putting your interpretation on what other people really mean? Are you hearing through your hurt rather than hearing the truth?
As for Flip Benham and me, we absolutely agree that homosexual practice is sin and that God can transform gay men and women, and we stand against homosexual activism. We are brothers together in the Lord Jesus. That being said, our methods and approaches are often very different, and therefore you should simply judge each of us by what we say and do rather than by attributing to Flip what the Coalition of Conscience does or attirbuting to the Coalition what Flip does. We are distinct ministries and we make independent decisions, but we are brothers and friends in the Lord. I hope you can process that accordingly.
As for your experience in being barred from a church, perhaps there’s another side to it. What if the people there thought that you were going to use a church service for negative PR purposes? What if the church leaders were concerned that you would use something sacred — like gathering together to worship — to promote what they were convinced was a sinful lifestyle before God? What if they felt you were guilty of judging them and they had no idea what you planned to do once you got into the church service?
Matt, I don’t doubt for a minute that this was a very painful experience to you, and at the risk of sounding trite, I feel some of your pain. But what if you came to those same people privately and said, “Can I worship here with you? I’m a homosexual but I don’t believe God wants me to be gay, and I’m asking him for help. Can I join you?” I can assure you that I know countless churches where the people would put their arms around you and welcome you into their churches and homes. But when they see you pushing something very dangerous on them — remember, you’re showing up on their campuses and telling them they are not free to practice their own religious beliefs! — then they might not be particularly welcoming of you. Can you see the other side of this?
As for your closing comments, I’m really glad that you “hound” me and I appreciate your kind words (at least, from the “part” of you that feels that way). And as I have said to you in the past, let’s get together for lunch and talk face to face in a non-pressure environment. You have my private email address.
I just ask you to consider this one perspective: If I am 100% convinced by years of careful and prayerful study of the Word of God that homosexual practice is forbidden by the Lord, and that those who engage in it, just like those who commit adultery or practice drunkeness, among many other sins, will be excluded from God’s kingdom, what should I say to you? Should I welcome you as a Christian when the Word tells me that you are standing outside God’s grace?
On the one hand, I have listened intently and with much soul-searching as “gay Christians” have shared their stories, and I am constantly speaking to the Church in many different settings about the need to have greater sensitivity and compassion for those with same-sex attractions. In that sense, I am trying to put that salve on the wound of which you speak.
But can I welcome you as a brother as long as you claim exemption from God’s standards? Doesn’t Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 tell me to do the opposite? I really do want to be involved in your life, and I really do want to be an agent of grace to you and others in the GLBT community. But to do that means that I must faithfully reflect the character of Jesus, which means combining grace with truth. As Paul asked the Galatians, “Have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?” Can you hear God’s grace even as I speak the truth to you? I hope so!
Thanks again for your candid posts. I felt I owed it to you to do the same.
I used to be a BRSM student and it misled me and left me confused about my life, after the church split up. Now I have my own peace and life that I have found and I am on the spiritual path with the One I love, Who is the Creator of all things, Satan, http://www.joyofsatan.org, gives me the answers I need, and I have a real relationship with Him, Don’t feel sorry or pray for me because I don’t accept it, preaching will only make me laugh, Satan IV:3 “Say unto thine own heart, ‘I am mine own redeemer.’ This is not my website but one I refer to. Satanism is the one true Way, all others are man-made, and ministry is nothing more than a power trip to see who can gain more money than the other,who’s ministry will be bigger than the other,and the sick phrase of “FIRE” is nothing more than the bodies response to an intense belief of power and it will thus manifest itself in feel good ‘goose bumps’ and the ‘fire response’………..if only closed minds came with closed mouths………christianity has pagan dna…….Hail Satan forever! Angel Greenhaw angel65674@yahoo.com write and yell at me.
Angel,
My wife and I would like to interact with you. Is it okay to email you? We’re not going to yell at you.
Thanks,
Bryan
What’s new? Liberals will always twist information and FACTS to fit their agendas…
Brian Purtle family…..you are welcome to write me…angel65674@yahoo.com thank you.
Dr. Brown, can you write someone who is reaching out again? Been burnt by Christianity and trying to get back up again, like the song ‘we fall down and we get up for a saint is just a sinner who fell down and got up.’ thank you! angel greenhaw angel65674@yahoo.com
We’ll be in touch with you, Angel.
We’re glad to be able to.
Dr. Brown
Some people felt you were unkind to me by stating that I am a transgender person male to female dressed as a woman. I did not think that was unkind just truthful. I also was pleased to see you made reference to a transgender person on the panel or a lot of people that were not at the discussion would not have known a transgender person was on the panel. What I did find disappointing was that you did not state that I was the only person to clearly state that they were a Christian on the panel. I also was the only panel member to state that and to say that I believe the Bible to be infallible. I was the only Christian to give a personal testimony.
Dr. Brown you also asked me to resend an email to you and you would respond. I did resend it to you. But you did not reply. Should I post it here?
Thank you,
Roberta
Roberta,
It’s nice to hear from you again, and thanks for your comments. Actually, when I have told the story of the panel discussion at Queens, I have specifically made reference to your profession of being a conservative Christian who held to the full authority of the Scriptures. If I failed to do it in the instance you’re referring to, that was certainly not intentional, since, to me, your profession adds to the poignancy (and, for many, like me) contradiction of the story. I do believe some others shared personal testimonies of faith as well — I certainly did (”From LSD to Ph.D.”) — but again, I do appreciate your desire to be forthright about your beliefs.
Just last night, I was sorting through older emails and found yours again (along with a number of others!), but if you don’t get a reply from me within a week, feel free to post your email here for my reply.
It is my heartfelt prayer that God will bring you into the fullness of His plan and purpose for your life and again, thanks for posting here.
Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown
Thank you for helping me share the message that transgender people can be Christians. As Jesus said in John 17:24: “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” I want to assure you that our Lord has given many of us in the GLBT community to Jesus and that includes me. In Acts 10:15 our Lord says. The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
I now understand why I was brought to the Charlotte area thank you for your concern. I am meeting with several churches and it my pleasure to share Jesus’s love.
This is the email I sent you on February 18th 2008 I would greatly appreciate your comments.
Dr. Michael Brown & Mr. Harry Knox: February 18, 2008
I had the pleasure of attending the debate on February 14, 2008, “A Christian Response to Homosexuality,” between Dr. Michael Brown, director of the Coalition of Conscience and Mr. Harry Knox, director of HRC’s Religion and Faith Program. I thank you both for the time and effort. I was very pleased that the attendees were evenly split between religious right and religious left. We were all well mixed throughout the theater which shows that we can hangout with each other. This needs to be done more often.
I believe this was a first for me, being at a large gathering of Christians with two leaders of Christian Churches and not one prayer. I missed that. I wondered were you both terrified that asking Jesus to open our hearts and minds, that he would? I hope not. I also had a hard time understanding how two very well educated people can have such divided differences on the same readings. Not the whole Bible but pick and choose a word here and there. I was disappointed by all the references to the Old Testament. Are we not Christians? I do not believe that this is what Jesus wants. It reminded me of my children eating peas and carrots: one eating the peas and the other the carrots. How can we be so close but still so far apart? Are we all not God’s children?
I am a Christian and I know that my salvation is through Jesus Christ. Nothing else, doing goods works builds my faith and allows me to be a spokesperson for Christianity. Nothing can change that. Especially not what I wear.
I was not raised to view Christianity as a smorgasbord religion. Yes, our different denominations have a few different ways to practice our religion. But, our main belief is that Jesus died for our sins. We should not read through the Bible and say yes to this and no to that. I also believe that mankind could not live by the Laws of Moses. So God sent His son to earth so that He could be the perfect sacrifice for our salvation. And in doing so those laws are no longer to be followed by Christians. I believe that the Old Testament is included in our Bibles to show that Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophets and not for us to follow all the Old Testament laws. Using these Old Testament laws to condemn certain classes Christians is not Christian.
The Old Testament law was only temporary and was, consequently, to come to an end. Jeremiah foretold this fact and the Hebrew writer declared its fulfillment (Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:6-13). God indicated that a new covenant, different from the covenant through Moses, was to be given; the Hebrew writer set forth its accomplishment. He then explained that in his day the old was “ready to vanish away” (Heb. 8:13) and that indeed “there is made of necessity a change of the law” (Heb. 7:12).
(see footnote)
The Old Testament law was nailed to the cross of Christ and thereby was brought to an end as a law to guide God’s people. Paul declared that Christians are “dead to the law by the body of Christ” and that this law was the law which said, “Thou shalt not covet”, i.e. the ten commandments law (Romans 7:4,7). Elsewhere, Paul indicated that the veil which was “untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament … is done away in Christ,” the reason being it was “done away” (2 Corinthians 3:14,11). Christ “abolished in his flesh … the law of commandments by the cross” (Ephesians 2:15-16). In fact, he was said to have removed the “handwriting of ordinances by nailing it to his cross” (Colossians 2:14).
(see footnote)
I am a political conservative person; some people have even said that Rush Limbaugh is to my left. I am also a transgender person. I don’t know why, nor do I care anymore. But something was always inside the back of my mind and was suppressed for over fifty years. I have no intention of going back in that box again. I am what God made me. I am married, have children, grand children and great-grandchildren. I do not leer at women in ladies rooms. I use it for what it is there for. I think I would look much more out of place in a men’s restroom. Dr. Brown condemned me (transgender people) at the debate and Mr. Knox did not cover transgender people in his segments. He did apologize for not covering the transgendered but said he believed the debate was about “A Christian Response to Homosexuality”. As a Christian it hurts me to see the “so call religious right” trying to be so self righteous and then the “so called left” condemning them. Life is very simple for a Christian: our salvation is through Jesus Christ, not in the Old Testament Laws. I believe the “Trans” world covers a very diverse spectrum of people. It is very difficult to know who and what we are. The “GLB” of “GLBT” in most part don’t know who or what we are. The ”T” of “GLBT” is working on educating for all. I would be delighted to meet with you and help you have a better understanding of us.
This debate should be done again only this time limit the debate to the New Testament and include transgender. Our doors need to open to all Christians. Is not the killing by the radical fundamental Muslims in the Middle East not a message to all of us? Jesus gave us change, follow it. We need to get out of the Old Testament Laws, and pray to Jesus for a softening of our hearts and an openness of our minds. Like our salvation, love and understanding is through Jesus not using Jesus.
Footnote:
http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=615
Thank you,
And God Bless
Roberta
Roberta,,
Thanks so much for posting your email to me here. This way my response can be public.
But may I ask you what I have said that gave you the idea that someone who is a practicing transgender person (say, a cross-dresser, e.g.), can be a committed Christian at the same time?
Dr. Brown you asked.
But may I ask you what I have said that gave you the idea that someone who is a practicing transgender person (say, a cross-dress, e.g.), can be a committed Christian at the same time?
Before I answer can I ask you why someone who is a practicing transgender person (say, a cross-dress, e.g.), CAN NOT be a committed Christian at the same time? Can you show me where it says that in the Bible? I will get back with you on this later.
Roberta
Dr. Brown
This is what you said:
“It’s nice to hear from you [Roberta] again, and thanks for your comments. Actually, when I have told the story of the panel discussion at Queens, I have specifically made reference to your profession of being a conservative Christian who held to the full authority of the Scriptures.”
Actually what I said was “I am a conservative and a Christian” Then I gave my personal testimony. I also said that to be a Christian a person does not have belong to a certain church, that no church owns Christianity, that one can be a Christian in any church, or not even be in a church. One can become a Christian anywhere even here at Queens University auditorium tonight. To be a Christian one has to believe that Jesus is the son of God and the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament; that Jesus died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for our sins, and, that our salvation is through him nothing else. It is not through the church that we attend, the good works that we do, but only by accepting Jesus as our Lord and personal savior. This is what I believe and in my opinion that makes me a Christian. What I or any else wear or don’t wear is not any part of being a Christian, at least not in any of the Bibles that I read.
No person in the universe, no church, no denomination can make a person a Christian or deny that a person is a Christian, only Jesus determines who is a Christian. Being a Christian is a one on one personal relationship with Jesus. So when you tell people that I (“Roberta”) stated that she was a Christian you are saying that she is professed to be a Christian. No person on this earth has the authority to deny that. Only Jesus can do that. No person on earth has dominion to determine or deny who is a Christian. I hope and pray that you do not believe that you have dominion to determine who is or is not a Christian. I personally hope that you are not going back to the Old Testament and want to deny people access to God “Jesus” based on gender or what a person wears. If a woman wears pants is she a cross dresser and not a Christian?
God Bless,
Roberta
Dear “Roberta,”
Thanks so much for your explanatory post. I hope you see that I was not affirming the legitimacy of cross-dressing but rather stating your own profession — not my views.
With all respect to the struggles you have endured, the fact is that you are crossing major scriptural lines by cross-dressing, actually undermining and confusing the male-female distinctives in the Word, distinctives that go back to our very creation
You quite intentionally have sought to take on the appearance of a woman (you are not merely “wearing pants”), using a different name when you cross-dress, wearing clothes that only a woman wears (no man in our society naturally dresses in a long skirt, nor does he wear a bra or a woman’s wig, etc.). Are you then he or she? When you cross-dress, you want to be a “she,” so you are then a “she” married to a woman. This is not right! Are you your wife’s husband? Then you are not Roberta! Are you now a woman? Then you cannot be married to a woman.
You mentioned at the Queens University event that some of your grandchildren don’t know about “Roberta.” Why? Because it is not easy for them to understand that Grandpa sometimes like to be Grandma.
Am I your ultimate judge as to your salvation? Certainly not. That is between you and God. Do I affirm that you are a Christian? Certainly not, since the Word gives many guidelines about what is required for those who follow Him (read 1 John for example, in terms of the requirements to walk in the light and in total obedience if we are to be saved).
For the benefit of our readers here on this website, and to help you put your thoughts down openly, can I ask you a few questions?
1) Are you a man or a woman? When you read the Word speaking to husbands and wives, to fathers and mothers, to older men and to older women — with specific directives for each — which one are you?
2) Is it permissible according to the Word for a man to have sex with a man, or a woman with a woman, in the context of a monogamous, committed relationship, after vows were taken at a church?
3) Do you understand that your cross-dressing places you firmly in the midst of the contemporary gay activist movement?
4) Do you believe that the first requirement for being a disciple is to deny your “self” — meaning that our preferences are not what matters, but God’s will is what matters?
I look forward to your answers, and I pray that God would help you to see the light. Also, for my own conscience sake, would you be kind enough to let me call you by your given name (Robert?).
Blessings and grace,
Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown:
I am not surprised that you cannot show that being a transgendered person is wrong using scripture because it isn’t. You still have not replied to my email I sent you, say you will, but you don’t. I am what God made me and God accepts and loves what he makes. Read Acts: 10 34-35 then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is the God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right” and Acts 10: 27-28 “Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown to me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.” You may ask what is right. It is proclaiming that our salvation is through Jesus Christ. I do this every day. I also recommend that you read John 4: 5-45. You have stated that you went from LSD to PhD. That is good for your body and mind but it does nothing for your soul. I have never heard you say you are a Christian or your personal testimony. I checked on the Queens DVD and you did not say it there either. If you are will you share that with us? I know several people that have a PhD in theology and they are not Christians one is visiting my home for a few days this week and he does not believe in God. To me that is unbelievable.
I am exactly what God made me to be a Male to Female transgender person. God does not care what a person wears or what they call themselves he knows all of his children by name just like he knows the stars in the sky above as he made them too. I talk with God everyday and he calls me “Roberta.” I believe if that is good enough for God it should work for everyone else too.
I thought we were having a discussion on being transgender and the Bible but you seem to want to take this personal. I believe that would be better handled in an in person meeting. My wife and I would be more than willing meet with you.
I got out my DVD on the Queens Panel and I did not say anything about my grand children only my four children. Do you feel better by trying to hurt someone? I do not think that is very Christian and it did not work. So I will not dignify you with an answer talking about my grandchildren. I would not ask you anything about your family on a website in my family that is considered unacceptable behavior. As a Christian I show Jesus love and I try to show a ray of light to draw people to Jesus. Not meanness. I would never do anything to harm a hair on the head of a child of God’s no matter what age they are as we all are children of God from cradle to grave.
On your website you say that Jesus died on the cross to change us.
“Many of you speak of your devotion to Jesus and tell us that if we were true Christians we would accept you as you are, and we do not doubt your sincerity. But Jesus did not simply accept us as we are. He died to change us! That is the greatest expression of sacrificial love. It is true that he says to us “Come as you are,” but His invitation is always to come and be changed.”
My Bible says that Jesus died on the cross for our salvation. When a person accepts Jesus as their savor personal changes will start maybe not the ones you may want just the ones that Jesus wants and when he wants them. Again as I said at Queens I have had several discussions with the Holy Spirit He says Roberta I want you to do this or that and I say I don’t want to and then like a good child I do it. I think I said I had numerous of these conversations but I like to tell people that I’m 0 for 40.
I do not believe personal questions belong on a website so I will not answer them nor will ask them.
God Bless
Roberta
“Roberta,”
I have scores of emails and posts that I plan to respond to, and I apologize that I am slow in responding to yours. Thanks for your patience. I also apologize for speaking of your grandchildren vs. children; the point I was making stands firm all the same.
I actually gave you lots of scriptural principles and questions, to which you did not reply, and the reason for that is simple: God did NOT make you male and female, and He is not calling you to be both.
I really had no intention of bringing up your personal life here, but if you’ll look at the thread, you’ll see that you raised the issue of being transgender and a Christian, and the simple fact is this: We are in a fallen world in a broken, sinful condition, and God calls us to deny ourselves and to die to our sins so that we can live for Him.
Sir, I urge you to find your real identity in Him, and to say no to every desire and inclination that robs you of being the man of God that He made you and called you to be. He has so much for you and so much He wants to do through you, but you cannot feed your fleshly desires and fulfill His calling at the same time. Come out — truly — and be free.
With blessings and love,
Dr. Brown
Whilst not knowing any of you on this thread who represent the homosexual / transgender argument, I do know this for all of you:
The call to put your faith in & follow Jesus Christ is for all of you.
However, putting your faith in this God-man, means your 100% absolute trust in His ways and power. That means we follow this Man by faith, knowing that His way is best! So then, if He comes and calls us to forsake everything that is not of His creative intention and order (He was the One who spoke the worlds into being after-all!) - then we have to have faith in the fact also that He will also bring His power to those who embrace that call to repent and follow.
In other words, the things I once pursued, and in fact held me bound, He not only calls me from, but He also calls me to Himself! (Read the Rich Young Ruler - the command was not just to forsake the love of His riches, but the power to do this was in the command to follow Jesus.) And there was the key for that young ruler, and all of us. The answer lays in the One from whom the call originates! I stand as testimony of the Divine power of God to loose me from the power of sin’s hold.
As Dietrich Bonhoeffer once said: The call to follow is not cheap but costly, it demands everything. But there is power in that ‘call’ - it is grace. Grace does not excuse, rather it is the power that accompanies the call to come into the righteousness of God. Therefore, Grace is costly! (My paraphrase)
Therefore, hear the call to repent and believe, which requires faith! It will mean losing your life on the one hand, but gaining Life in the Son, which far exceeds the former, both in future destiny and in present power!