Kingdoms in Conflict Followup
Filed under News, Sexuality & Gender on November 19th, 2008 by Marcus FrenchEditor’s Note: The YouTube account mentioned below was later taken off of the video’s site.
People have asked us how we got our information concerning the Kingdoms in Conflict: Castro District Mob Assaults Christians article we posted. Our information came from an email from someone affiliated with JHOP containing substantially the same story that was posted on the YouTube video we linked to (the account can be seen if you click on “More Info” to the upper right). An identical version to the email we received, which was slightly different from the YouTube video account, was posted on Free Republic. You will find all the information contained in the article we posted in the Free Republic account, reprinted below:
We wanted to write you and fill you guys in on what happened to our team here in San Francisco last night. This is what happened from Daniel’s point of view and gives a pretty good overview of the night.
I went to the Castro (the homosexual district of San Francisco) with JHOPSF (I have been with the Justice House of Prayer San Francisco since April 2008.) like we usually do on Friday nights. Normally, we sit on 18th and Castro, and someone plays the guitar, and we all worship God. Often times people will be drawn to us, even if only for curiosity of what we’re doing, so we get to talk to them, and tell them about the Love of Jesus Christ. On rare occasions, when the Holy Spirit clearly guides one of us (Usually a leader, probably Roger), one person will open-air preach for a little bit.
Sometimes a person will yell at us, or maybe a few. Sometimes people will ignore us. Sometimes people will let us pray with them. We get different responses from different people each time, but the Lord always meets us there.
This time was not a normal night. It was the first time we’d been back in the Castro to do our normal outreach since California Proposition 8, which defined marriage as “one man with one woman” was passed. Apparently, previously, someone at a no on 8 rally singled out Promised Land Fellowship (The church that we attend), and specifically the team they send out to the Castro on Friday nights (Us) as being affiliated with the yes on 8 campaign (Which is partially true. All the individuals involved with the Castro Outreach were involved with the yes on 8 campaign, but mostly in prayer. However, the Castro Outreach isn’t about Gay marriage, or politics - it’s about Jesus Christ.).
We played the guitar and sang together and worshiped the Lord. Nobody preached. Nobody even really talked to anyone except for a little bit near the beginning. After just singing and worshiping God for a while, Roger decided that we should all hold hands in a circle and continue singing. So we did.
Someone (Actually a person who came up and hugged and kissed some of us who he knew from the past and was asking us how we were doing) convinced some people that we were there to protest against the no on 8 campaign. Then some guy who was dressed up like one of the sisters (The sisters of perpetual indulgence is a group of men who dress up in drag like nuns and call themselves the spiritual authority of the Castro.) took a curtain-type thing (Which I think they use to curse people) and wrapped it around us.
Then a crowd started gathering. We began to sing “Amazing Grace”, and basically sang that song the whole night. (At some points we also sang “Nothing but the Blood of Jesus” and “Oh the Blood of Jesus”.)
At first, they just shouted at us, using crude, rude, and foul language and calling us names like “haters” and “bigots”. Since it was a long night, I can’t even begin to remember all of the things that were shouted and/or chanted at us.
Then, they started throwing hot coffee, some people got it in their faces, soda and alcohol on us and spitting (and maybe even peeing) on us. Then, a group of guys surrounded us with whistles, and blasted them inches away from our ears continually.
Then, they started getting violent and started shoving us. We just gathered in as tight as we could together and worshiped singing Amazing Grace. At one point a man tried to steal one of our Bibles. Chrisdene noticed, so she walked up to him and said “Hey, that’s not yours, can you please give it back?”. He responded by hitting her on the head with the Bible, shoving her to the ground, and kicking her. I called the cops, and when they got there, they pulled her out of the circle and asked her if she wanted to press charges. She said “No, tell him I forgive him.” Afterwards, she didn’t rejoin us in the circle, but she made friends with one of the people in the crowd, and really connected heart to heart.
Roger got death threats. As the leader of our group, people looked him in the eyes and said “I am going to kill you.”, and they were serious. A cop heard one of them, and confronted him.
(This part is kinda graphic, so you should skip the paragraph if you don’t want to be offended.) It wasn’t long before the violence turned to perversion. They were touching and grabbing me, and trying to shove things in my butt, and even trying to take off my pants - basically trying to molest me. I used one hand to hold my pants up, while I used the other arm to hold one of the girls. The guys huddled around all the girls, and protected them.
Soon after, the cops came and stood between us and the mob. When it was getting more heated, the cops were like “You guys should leave.” because it was getting harder to protect us. and Roger said “We want to stay.” Then he said if you want to get out you have to get out now.
Someone tried to steal my backpack, but I tapped a cop on the shoulder, and said “Hey, that’s my bag.” and he got it from him and gave it to me. Others weren’t so lucky. Probably half our team got their jackets stolen.
Eventually, as the crowd was getting more and more uncontrollable, the cops were afraid for our lives, so they escorted us to our van. (The cops were very nice to us from start to finish.) Our van was parked pretty far because it was hard to find parking that day. As the cops escorted us, the mob followed us, until the cops formed a line, and held off the people so we could drive away. We took the long way home, just in case anyone tried to follow us.
When we got home, we prayed and sang more, and then prayed over each-other.The whole experience made me love, and brought me closer to God, and my friends, and the people in the Castro, as well as the church in general, and the lost in general.
Please know my heart. All of what we do is for the Love of Jesus Christ, and the love for those in the Castro. The Bible says to love God, and then love people. We can only love because He loved us first. We can’t hate the people because they are just broken and blinded by the spirit of this age. Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against Principalities and Powers. It’s not a political thing, we just love the people. We don’t want to convert gays to straight people. We want them to know the Love of Jesus Christ. Even if someone never becomes attracted to the other sex, they can still love Jesus Christ with all their heart, mind, and soul.
As the mob raged, all I could pray was “God have mercy.”. It really is all about God’s mercy. He desires mercy over judgment. He desires for all to be saved.
One of the things that I remember them chanting was “Shame on you.”. One of our girls later pointed out how, in some weird way, it’s a privilege for us, because we know that Jesus bore all our shame, and all our transgressions on the cross, so it’s kinda like taking on their shame, so we can cast it onto Jesus.
This is the raw footage of the walk from 18th and Castro Street to our car. It was only the very tail end of the night and says that we were all about prop8… when in reality we had nothing to do with prop 8 this night.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/17986914/detail.html
May the Holy Lord God Almighty, Who Was, Who Is, and Who Is To Come, be glorified, now and forevermore. Amen. -Daniel-
Thank you for praying for us, and more for this people in the Castro. We have found ourselves even more broken over them. We love you!
Missy
Tags: Castro District, homosexuality, JHOP, prop 8
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My somewhat lengthy response/analysis of this story is now up:
http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2907/
When Matt says he was pelted with rocks and called “fag” and other such slurs, I, for some reason, believe him. I don’t know that he provided any documents to verify his claim that only one church out of a thousand has been nice to him, but I believe him.
I’ve never seen police records, verifiable testimony or anything else, but I haven’t called him a liar, which in essence is what he’s nicely saying about this ministry.
Maybe I’m wrong, but Matt, you’re using unequal weights and measures…oddly enough, he calls that an abomination in the bible also. Do you hold the same high standards of proof to reports about alleged christian hatred? And don’t bother with Fred Phelps links…that man is no more a representative of Jesus than the man in the moon.
I have a feeling that if we now begin to critique your claims with YOUR standards, your own stories may not hold up so well. “The game is a foot”, I guess. I mean, it’s cool to hold our feet to the fire…but can we hold yours as well?
Food for thought.
mark jr.
p.s. “YOUR” is in caps because I ain’t computer savy enough to know how to make it italicized…didn’t want you to think it was intended to be read as a yelling kinda thing…
I ended up making a judgment call, based on the account of the team member, as well as prior knowledge of the ministry’s integrity, that the JHOP people had in fact been verbally, physically, and sexually assaulted, thus those things are stated as fact in the article (and JHOP’s official report confirms that they happened). With regard to a few of the specific and controversial acts that could have been misinterpreted or misidentified by the JHOP members, I was careful to say “according to one of the victims” or “according to some at the scene”, rather than stating them as fact. Thus I still stand by the story we wrote.
In retrospect however, I should have checked to make sure that the account on YouTube was the same exact one I had received, and I should have subsequently let people know in my article that the account I was going off of was from a JHOP member who was at the scene, and that people could look at the account for themselves at the Free Republic link. It was simply an oversight on my part, and I’ll do better in the future with regard to documenting my sources.
Marcus, I’m moving my response here.
You asked: What exactly did Lou say or do that made you “sick almost to the point of vomiting”?
I almost want to reply flippantly, “What didn’t he say?” But I went to the trouble of transcribing the first five minutes of his sermon so that I could accurately respond.
He admits that he preaches more out of 1 Kings than anywhere else. I think I know why he loves 1 Kings, and in particular, the story of Elijah. The Elijah story models what Lou believes is going to happen here in America. He believes that he and his soldiers are going to take over the government for Jesus, in the same kind of way that Elijah and Jehu were able to engineer a coup over Ahab and Jezebel. As an American and as someone who took an oath to uphold the US Constitution, I find this very disturbing. In fact, I am going to be blunt: it’s anti-democratic and contrary to what our country was founded upon. In short, Lou Engle is fomenting revolution and he’s got a bunch of followers. Anyway, Lou loves 1 Kings to death and it shows.
He mentioned Jesus once in five minutes [saying that his son Jesse knows the gospel of Jesus better than he does, because he preached out of 1 Kings all the times], but Ba’al got five shoutouts. He talks about abortion, equates it to infanticide (which it is not, and see below for a discussion of subtlety) and says people are sacrificing their children to Moloch. Well, at the risk of offending you, I’d like to point out that evangelical Christianity has at its bottom the belief that God sent his son, an innocent person, as a sacrifice to die for our sins. God the Father required this blood sacrifice to forgive us from our sins. I ask (and this was the near to vomiting part for me): “what’s the difference?” You may think the question is alternately horrifying and flippant, but the fact is, it’s a sacrifice of the innocent just the same. I’m sorry, babies to Moloch or Jesus on the cross to appease an angry, bloodthirsty God the Father–it’s still human sacrifice and it’s ALL abhorrent to me. It kind of makes me sick to think that I asked, on many occasions, for the blood of Jesus to cover my sins, without thinking about what that really meant. To me, now, it means cosmic child abuse. (Of course, you’ll differ on that, and I understand that. But you have to understand my revulsion, so I’m telling you this.)
Then Lou moves back to the election and basically says that the church has bowed the knee to Ba’al for the sake of political expediency. While not wanting to put words into his mouth, it sounds to me like he was pretty darn disappointed that Obama is going to be president. After that, he goes on about infanticide some more, about the sanctity of marriage and how that’s being redefined by law. He then launches into a discussion of changing the definition of gender through some California legislative bill 777. That’s when I turned it off the first time.
He hung it all together in a way I have to admit is extremely skillful, and he had his audience eating out of his hand.
My reaction the second time around is that I wanted to argue every single point with him. I was just sick, because these subjects (abortion, the election, marriage, gender, etc.) are far more subtle and difficult than Lou would have you believe, and because I used to think like this. Lou thinks in blacks and whites, and I think in shades of gray. Even on the First Amendment, something I’m passionate about, I have to admit there are limits (and I’ve been pretty close to those limits on occasion in the past).
While, as I said above, I do believe that Lou is attempting to foment revolution [in cahoots with a group of so-called "apostles], I don’t believe that he has the power to bring it about, even if he does think he’s got Jesus on his side. A careful examination of religious history would indicate that past grandiose expectations of being able to take over the world for Jesus have fallen flat. I fully expect this one to do so as well. However, I’m concerned about smaller effects in the short term. Lou is looking for martyrs, and I am troubled that young people, influenced by his martyr talk [cf this YouTube video from Nov. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1HGpY8EuXQ ] may do stupid things to bring about some sort of faux persecution.
And I afraid that what happened last Friday night is a harbinger of more to come. As much as the denizens of JHOP-SF would like to believe that their actions had nothing to do with Proposition 8, the fact of the matter is that their parent organization (The Call) did put on a big rally less than two weeks previously and (please watch the video I referenced above) Lou did encourage people to vote for Prop 8.
As a result of this whole episode, I’ll be keeping a much closer (and fairly jaundiced) eye on Lou Engle.
Deana,
Before I interact with the rest of your comment, would you mind telling me a bit more about what your current spiritual beliefs are?
I’m agnostic on the subject of God. There is not enough evidence in this huge universe to say there is, or is not, a God. I have significant prior religious experience (of many types). These days I get more spirituality out of contemplating photographs from Astronomy Picture of the Day. Those challenge my mind in a good way, as opposed to the thousands of hours of preaching and teaching I heard over the years that only served as mind-numbing bludgeons.
A picture of a galaxy never told me to close my mind. However, more than a few preachers told me to not look at the little man behind the curtain.
Deana,
Your argument here hinges on your statement that he “believes that he and his soldiers are going to take over the government for Jesus, in the same kind of way that Elijah and Jehu were able to engineer a coup over Ahab and Jezebel”, which you don’t provide evidence for. Please provide proof.
So you believe that abortion is human sacrifice?
With regard to Jesus’ death, I wonder, since you are agnostic, why would his death mean “cosmic child abuse”? Surely you don’t really think Jesus’ death appeased “an angry, bloodthirsty God the Father”, so why would it cause you “revulsion”? Is the real problem that I and other believers in the Messiah believe that he “took up our infirmities”, “carried our sorrows”, “was pierced for our transgressions” and was “crushed for our iniquities”? Your revulsion must be either in us or the fact that we would believe such things, rather than in God for doing such a thing, since you believe there is not enough evidence to say there is or is not a God, let alone a God of the sort that Jesus preached.
Your argument here hinges on your statement that he “believes that he and his soldiers are going to take over the government for Jesus, in the same kind of way that Elijah and Jehu were able to engineer a coup over Ahab and Jezebel”, which you don’t provide evidence for. Please provide proof.
Many of those who do believe in God and that Jesus is the Son of the Living God AND who would even classify themselves as Pentecostal, believe that Lou Engle is a proponent of and teaches Dominion/Joel’s Army Theology, which many find unbiblical and of unsound doctrine. This is to say that the church will one day take over the government in the Spirit of Jesus Christ rather than the literal return of Christ for His Bride, and yet will judge the earth and then at some point God Himself will destroy the earth and the heavens with Fire. (2 Peter 3:7, 10)
I find it very interesting that someone who claims to be agnostic see’s the “truth” of what Lou Engle preaches/teaches along with many of those who stand by the Third Wave Theology (Latter Rain). Deanna is hearing along many who are in the Body of Christ, discerning the same type of issue within the church. The unsound doctrine of DOMINIONISM!
Dominionism describes, in several distinct ways, a tendency among some conservative politically-active Christians, especially in the United States of America, to seek influence or control over secular civil government through political action — aiming either at a nation governed by Christians, or a nation governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law. The use and application of this terminology is a matter of controversy.</quote
IWTT,
See this article from a few days ago for a discussion of dominionism and Lou Engle: http://voiceofrevolution.askdrbrown.org/2008/11/19/kingdoms-in-conflict-update-and-debunking-rumors/
IWTT,
Could you send me documentation on those who believe that Lou Engle teaches dominionism? The more details you have, the better. Thanks!
Could you also define dominionism for me? Is it the same as post-millenialism the way you are using the term?
Marcus French and Dr. Brown,
I would be glad to send some info. down the road. I will gather that when I can and send to you.
IWTT
“So you believe that abortion is human sacrifice?”
No. Again, we get back to that subtlety that Lou Engle lacks.
“With regard to Jesus’ death, I wonder, since you are agnostic, why would his death mean “cosmic child abuse”? Surely you don’t really think Jesus’ death appeased “an angry, bloodthirsty God the Father”, so why would it cause you “revulsion”? Is the real problem that I and other believers in the Messiah believe that he “took up our infirmities”, “carried our sorrows”, “was pierced for our transgressions” and was “crushed for our iniquities”? Your revulsion must be either in us or the fact that we would believe such things, rather than in God for doing such a thing, since you believe there is not enough evidence to say there is or is not a God, let alone a God of the sort that Jesus preached.”
I am agnostic about the existence of God. I am not agnostic about the effects of considered thinking about the meaning of Jesus’ death. Believe it or not, these are two entirely different things and can be considered in separate paragraphs, sentences, books or whatever. In any case, I actually wrote quite a bit and then erased it all, because, frankly, my revulsion over substitutionary atonement is not about you and your belief system. You should not take it upon yourself to be offended because I don’t care for the implications of your belief system. It really is NOT about you.
Deana,
Interesting… I’ve never heard anyone from that point of view before. What does Jesus’ death mean to you, given that you do not believe in the God that he preached?
What I think about Jesus’ death is far too complex to be put into words in a box on a blog. It would encompass over 40+ years of my life, since I was a girl. Just thinking about it brings a thousand thoughts rushing into my head. Jesus’ death is intimately tied up with who I am, and who I want to be in the future, even if I no longer consider myself a Christian. I don’t know how many times I imagined myself at the foot of his cross, watching him bleed, racked with pain for my sins and the sins of the world. And then I started asking “Why?” and the questions wouldn’t stop coming. And the answers were difficult and uncomfortable.
And that’s where I’m at now, in a world where the magic of being able to believe in a savior that died for my sins has also died.
Deana,
I wonder if perhaps you were involved with one (or more) churches out there who talk about nothing but what evil sinful people we are, and use fear of hell/punishment to almost control their congregation? Churches that talk constantly in such a way that convinces people that God is utterly angry and full of vengeance so that if they make one wrong step, they’re on the path to hell again, and therefore the only thing to stop the doom which is upon you is to essentially “get saved” constantly by pleading forgiveness and covering by the blood of Jesus? I’m so sorry if that’s true, that isn’t ever what God intended for us!
While it’s true that we are all twisted inside, and have done things big or small that would separate ourselves from God forever without God sending His son to take our place (if we do repent and turn to Him as our Savior), the love and longing of God for each of us to be with Him is what brought Jesus to the earth and to the cross, and His RESURRECTION is what makes us able to have life. Without the sacrifice that Jesus made of Himself, which He made willingly for the joy set before Him (His Great love for us and desire that we would be able to be one with Him), we would never have been able to die to our sins, they would rule us. But without His resurrection, the sacrifice by itself wouldn’t have been enough to allow us to live as a new creation in God. We are now able to live as new creatures, no longer slaves to sin (although of course we still do sin), and fully participate in the love that God has so extravagantly for us! Jesus was not coerced by an angry Father to simply come to the earth for the purposes of appeasing His need for vengeance. He came to be a living demonstration of the heart of God on the earth, and by His own life also show us how we may also live, according to the power of the Spirit and the will of God.
Jesus Himself said that He never did anything apart from what He saw the Father doing, and what He saw the Father doing was touching the ‘unclean’ sick and outcasts, having compassion on the people who were desperate for a word of God, going into the houses of ’sinners’ who were despised and avoided by the Pharisees, and His very love drew the sinners to repentance and they led totally changed lives as they followed Him. He raised a widow’s son from the dead out of compassion for her. He lived under the pleasure and approval of His Father in Heaven, and that is what gave Him life (more than sleep, food, or water), and He rejected the offer of Satan to rule the whole world outright then and there if Jesus would only bow to him, in order that when people turn to Him it would be out of love and gratitude, rather than coercion. He chose Himself to go to the Cross with the same attitude in which He lived on the earth, knowing the pleasure and the will of the Father, and out of a heart of love and compassion for all of us who were floundering without hope, and He knew when He went that He was going to rise from the dead three days later to seal the victory over death and bring unlimited hope and life on the earth to those who come to know Him and live in the life of His Spirit!
I have also spent a lot of time imagining myself at the foot of the cross, watching Jesus in such agony and knowing that the evil in my heart was what drove Him there, and so many times I felt so worthless that I didn’t think I was worth the sacrifice of the only Son of God. As I have come more and more to understand the true heart of God and the person of Jesus Christ, I instead stand in total awe and gratitude for the utter depth of His compassion and love for me! The truth is that God couldn’t stand to live without us! He thinks about us, LONGS for us, and He delights in us as children. The death of His only Son enabled Him to adopt those of us who receive Him as children and make the same life available to us as Jesus lived when He was here on earth, by the power of the Holy Spirit! We are the fulfillment of the JOY set before Him, and the desire of His heart! The life we can live after we die to our sins through true repentance and trust in Jesus is a life of grace, where our identity is no longer “evil sinners” but saints (who occasionally sin). We do repent for the sins we still commit, but the sorrow of having grieved the heart of the one who loves us and the desire to turn back to living in communion with Him is a very different thing than feeling as if He will cast us into hell at any moment if we are not 100% perfect! There is no fear in love, and we can truly approach Jesus with confidence, for He has mercy on us in our weakness. I pray that you will be able to truly experience the real and powerful love of the God who thinks about you and longs for you, and mourns over the pain in your heart.
I want to finish with the words of a song that has always meant a lot to me, where God is describing the change He works in us through the powerful love He has made available to us!
“I will change your name
You shall no longer be called
Wounded, Outcast, Lonely or Afraid.
I will change your name
Your new name shall be
Confidence, Joyfulness, Overcoming One
Faithfulness, Friend of God, One Who Seeks My Face.”
God Bless you!
The video of the JHOP- San Fran incident that took place in the Castro District on 11.14.2008 is still available on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrRxFoBSPng .