Born Alive, Then Thrown Away
Filed under News, Revolution & Justice on March 25th, 2009 by Bethany French
A Florida woman named Tonuya Rainey has been jailed for illegally aborting her daughter’s 24 week old baby boy and throwing him in the trash, and is now facing charges of “illegally terminating a pregnancy, child abuse and improper disposal of human remains.” Her daughter said that the baby was “breathing and moving his arms after birth,” a piece of information that horrified the presiding judge, causing him to increase her bail by over $170,000 for what that he called a crime “tantamount to murder.”
Following is the story:
According to police and prosecutors, [Rainey] gave her 16-year-old daughter a pregnancy-ending combination of drugs, then disposed of the fetus in a plastic garbage bag, police and prosecutors said.
But, according to a search warrant that’s part of the case, Rainey’s daughter told police her baby, a boy, was breathing and moving his arms after birth. Though Rainey hasn’t been charged with murder, that detail made the Broward County Court judge balk at allowing Rainey’s release after she posted $14,000 bond.
“I believe that what has allegedly occurred is tantamount to murder,” Hurley said at a bond hearing Friday…
When [Rainey's daughter] told her mother she was about 24 weeks pregnant, her mother gave her “round, white pills” to terminate the pregnancy, the police document said.
According to Miramar police spokeswoman Yessenia Diaz, those pills were a two-drug combination, once known as RU-486, that is now sold under prescription to induce abortions at home. Rainey did not get the pills from her workplace, Diaz said.
The teen told police she experienced severe cramps, then at 3 a.m. on March 6 gave birth while seated on a toilet. She said she lay the infant on a bed and saw him breathing and his arms moving. She did not hear the baby cry. Rainey and a friend then picked up the newborn and took him to the bathroom, according to the search warrant application.
The next time the teen saw her child, he was clothed and in a small box. It’s not clear in the warrant application whether the infant was alive at that time.
Babies are occasionally born alive from around 22 weeks old, especially when the pregnancy ends by means of drug-induced abortion. Consider this similar story, that takes place at an abortion clinic, rather than at home:
Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.
Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.
Only Renelique didn’t arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl…
[Williams] went to the Miramar Women’s Center on July 17, 2006. Sonograms indicated she was 23 weeks pregnant, according to the Department of Health. She met Renelique at a second clinic two days later.
Renelique gave Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix, and prescribed three other medications, according to the administrative complaint filed by the Health Department. She was told to go to yet another clinic, A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, where the procedure would be performed the next day, on July 20, 2006.
Williams arrived in the morning and was given more medication.
The Department of Health account continues as follows: Just before noon she began to feel ill. The clinic contacted Renelique. Two hours later, he still hadn’t shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby.
“She came face to face with a human being,” Pennekamp said. “And that changed everything.”
The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors… [and] knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby’s umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.
No working telephone number could be found for Gonzalez, and an attorney who has represented the clinic in the past did not return a message.
At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived.
An autopsy determined Williams’ baby - she named her Shanice - had filled her lungs with air, meaning she had been born alive, according to the Department of Health. The cause of death was listed as extreme prematurity.
The Department of Health believes Renelique committed malpractice by failing to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Williams was there, among other missteps.
The department wants the Board of Medicine, a separate agency, to permanently revoke Renelique’s license, among other penalties. His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records.
These stories are remarkably similar, with little difference besides the location of the abortion, yet the abortion clinic owner and the abortionist face only a few penalties from the state medical board, as no legal charges were filed, while Rainey has been taken to jail and faces some serious legal ramifications for her actions. There appears to be a bias in the courts favoring the abortionist and abortion clinics over those who do exactly the same thing at home, as the penalties for the abortionist are so much more lenient.
The Federal Born-Alive Infants Protection Act (which President Obama voted against in a state version of the bill, incidentally) that was passed in August of 2002 states that any child born alive, even from an induced abortion, is to be offered the same medical treatment due a person at any age, and cannot be left to die, or it is considered to be murder. In both these cases, investigations were being conducted as to whether or not to bring more serious legal charges, possibly as a result of this bill.
Is our society willing to overlook and brush aside the horrific results of abortions at legal clinics for political reasons, while focusing more attention on what will be less politically charged because it simply deals with individuals?
Tags: abortion, Born Alive, Born Alive Infant Protection Act, medically induced abortion, Negligence
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I have watched all six of my children come into this world.
I want to throw up. I am crying. I am shaking with anger.
I am amazed that this nation is allowed to exist. I am amazed at our depravity.
I don’t know what else to say.
How does this make you feel? How does this article affect those of you advocating that the Church remain silent towards society??? How does this article affect you? If this doesn’t turn your stomach and make you cry out, nothing ever will.
Blessings,
Justin
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
And to think, we’re worried about the economy. Money. Paper.
This happens every day, only it goes on where it can’t be seen, inside the womb. I guess it’s only wrong if we can see it, right? This is no different from legal abortion, and I say that anyone who says that the difference between life and unlife is passing through a birth canal is morally and intellectually blind at best.
I am incapable of understanding how any professing Christian can support abortion.
Are any of you out there? What do you have to say?
Blessings,
Justin
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
Justin,
It is utterly horrifying! I have personally been doubly impacted and sickened by these things all the more that we are about to have our first child! I hope and pray that the hearts of people in the Church will be gripped with love for the unborn to the point of taking a firm stand on the issue, even in our own hearts and in prayer! We have seen good fruit from the abortion ministry in Charlotte! A handful of faithful people in Charlotte have seen increasing numbers of young women changing their minds about having an abortion by simply being there in front of the abortion clinics and speaking words of compassion and truth from the heart of God, day after day, week after week. In the past two months, more than 20 people have approached these faithful saints to tell them that they have changed their minds! What prayer and faithfulness before the Lord can accomplish is truly amazing, as He steps in and changes hearts and minds by the power of His Spirit!
Bethany,
great to hear of the ‘abortion ministry’ in Charlotte, and I want to commend your comments, and what you are doing in that area.
In agreement of what you said about ‘compassion and truth’ I want to say for me the issue is two-fold:
The Church must stand for ALL pro-life causes, and speak out against all such acts against life as God intended.
But also the Church must also extend a hand of compassion to those who are contemplating aborting their child or have already done so. In my experience there is often a great darkness inside the mind and heart of those contemplating abortion & a spiritual scar on the lives of young women after they have had an abortion. Often, terrible circumstances of life and the enemy have taken their toll on a young women’s life. Thus is it is vital that the Church not only stands against the sin to protect life but to those who have gone through with things, applies healing for the soul, and allows God’s Spirit to touch them. This will need understanding, purity, mercy and grace to be applied in the power of God’s Spirit.
So for me it’s a two edged sword: Make a holy & righteous stand against the mass murder of our day; be ready to bring God’s redemptive power to each life involved if they have gone through with it. Remove the infection and apply healing.
Again, great to hear of your approach in that ministry, Bethany.
Andrew
I want to ask a question of everyone. Please hear me out.
These actions are horrendous. No more or less than legal abortion. Think of how you feel when you read this article. Feel it. Taste it. Dwell in that sick, depressing, horrified feeling of outrage and despair that you feel. It’s so many emotions and feelings that its hard to describe. Read it out loud, and dwell in the feeling and horror again.
I woke up the night after I read this in the middle of the night. I don’t know how to describe what I felt. It was all of this horror, despair, anger, and sorrow again but magnified until I thought I coudn’t take it for another second. I thought my heart would quit. Then it went away and although maybe this sounds crazy, I felt like the LORD was saying something to me in a voice so gentle and quiet it was more poignant and powerful than I could’ve dreamed. This horrible, terrible feeling, this torment, this THING crushing me, this is how my sins are to God. ALL of them.
Maybe I’m crazy. I’ve never experienced something like this before. What say you?
Blessings,
Justin
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
Justin,
Are you asking what people think the experience you’re recounting means?
I guess so, although I hesitate to say “God told me thus and so”. I know what this experience means to me, but I would like to know other’s opinions/experiences on whether they believe the LORD has ever spoke to them in such a manner.
Blessings,
Justin
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
Justin,
I definitely acknowledge and believe that God speaks and moves by His Spirit in the lives of believers. I would think there are three possibilities to it’s meaning, if it was an authentic moving of the Spirit (and I say this in the abstract, and not with respect to you in particular):
1) A calling from God to the unconverted sinner unto Himself, heart mind and soul (regardless of whether the person has ever “believed the doctrines of Christianity”), by showing the person their need. Consider the following from an Art Katz article:
2) God is calling someone that knows Him, but has backslidden back to Himself, by showing them the weight of their sin.
3) God is calling someone that knows Him to their destiny as ambassadors for Him, letting the person feel the weight of sin in society and in the church, and providing a tangible and experiential reason for thrusting themselves into situations that will not be pleasing for the flesh, but will be pleasing to God. I’m reminded of a Keith Green song:
Of course this is the kind of tragedy the anti-choice would love to make a daily occurrence in the United States. In the few fascist and communist dictatorships where abortion is illegal an average of 186 women die every day from botched abortions. Studies like the most recent one from John Hopkins have repeatedly showed that abortions happen at the same rate in countries where abortion is illegal as in the countries where abortion is legal. In other words the Christian anti-choice crowd isn’t interested in curbing abortions but only in putting women at unnecessary risk as a way to punish them. The anti-choice crowd is really just a male dominated religion trying to keep power out of the hands of women. Christian warmongers are hardly interested in protecting life of any kind. Fortunately the general public is now fully are of just how dangerous and deluded Bible believers are and always have been. Thankfully the age of information is bringing a quick end to the Christian system of superstition.
Religion is a crutch, abortions will continue and always have, no one can tell a woman about her own body. If she is ashamed of the pregnancy, she will abort where-ever. To her, it is an emotional issue, not legal, not moral, not anything. No one can decide for her. However, she will surely meet her future with great regret.
Oh how the Christian hypocrisy flows on this blog. Oh the tragedy of abortion! These are the same exact people who gleefully state that anyone who doesn’t buy into their religious dogma and doctrine will surely be tortured in hell for all eternity. If we ask them why they’ll tell us that all people deserve to burn in hell and for no other crime than being born. Do Christians cry out to their God that sending people to hell is a cruel, unusual and undeserved punishment? Do they question whether sending people to hell is fair, moral or ethical or serves any purpose? Of course not. Bible believers are afraid to question ANYTHING their God supposedly does. If God wants to torture the majority of humanity for all eternity well that’s just fine and dandy with the Bible believers. As long as it isn’t them and it’s instead the people who mocked and ridiculed them and their religion while they were alive.
Now of course there is almost no chance a baby girl born in Sweden will ever become a Christian. Next to Israel, Sweden has the highest percentage of atheists in the world. According to Christian dogma any baby girl born in Sweden has a better than 99 percent chance of winding up in hell. So by aborting these babies we are saving them from a fate much worse than death. I mean what’s worse a quick and painless death or an eternity being tortured in hell? Who would want to be born into the world, have to scratch out a living for a few decades and then be tortured for all eternity because they bought into the wrong religion or no religion at all? No thanks I’ll stay dead or unborn under those conditions and so would anyone else. The anger from Christians over abortion has nothing to do with protecting the unborn. We humans are denying God the unbridled joy and happiness He gets from sending people to hell and torturing them for all eternity. Every aborted fetus is one more soul that the Christian God doesn’t get to follow to their graves, and then torture with unimaginable violence forever and ever. Oh the tragedy of that!
Until we hear fundamentalist Christians complain that God should not torture souls in hell for the crime of honest disbelief we can see their complaints about abortion for what they really are. Religious nonsense supported by religious lies from completely discredited religious fanatics and liars.
Conservatives have invented a “religious” reason for stopping “free medical abortions” to those who cannot pay.
Bernie,
You said:
Where have you seen any of the writers on the blog “gleefully state” anything related to eternal judgment?
And with regard to your spiteful and accusatory comment as a whole, I would have gladly discussed the issues you raised (all of which I’ve spent many sleepless nights weeping over in study and prayer) if you had formed your comment with one shred of humility and respect. But since you show none in your comment towards us, I will show none towards your comment, and move on without response.
If you are at all interested in getting a glimpse into what I think about eternal judgment, and the need for reality rather than dogma, consider reading the first half of this post: http://voiceofrevolution.askdrbrown.org/2008/11/11/the-prophetic-gospel/
Marcus,
It doesn’t matter how politely I frame that argument it still presents yet another insurmountable problem for Bible believers better left ignored rather than have their faith challenged. If you had a valid response to it we would all see it. I simply don’t buy your excuse for not responding. We could talk instead about what abortion really is about which is forced parenthood. But you’d lose that argument too. Fundamentalist Christians want to force parenthood on people who do not want it or are not ready for it. This of course is harmful to both the parents and the child. Every child deserves to be wanted by their parents but forced parenthood denies that right. It’s bad enough that males have no reproductive rights at all. I find it incredibly hypocritical that people who claim to want government out of their lives only want them out of THEIR lives but constantly meddling in the affairs of the rest of us. To prove this I point out that Evangelical Christians get abortions and divorces at a rate 50 percent higher than the national average according the radio station Dr. Brown’s show is on. Go ahead tell me no true Christian would ever get an abortion. That’s another argument you’d lose.
Bernie,
It does seem that you won’t listen to any argument anyone gives - I can imagine it would be the same even if it comes from someone who agrees completely with you.
I’ve been reading an interesting book recently. It’s a series of transcripts of lectures given by Michel Foucault - probably the most influential 20th century French philosopher after Sartre (who also makes an interesting read).
The book is called ‘Psychiatric Power’ and it discusses the nature of what he calls ‘discipline’ - I put the word ‘discipline’ like this because it’s actually not the average concept of the word. He uses it in contrast of the word ’sovereignty’ and again it’s all very interesting.
The reason I’m talking about it is because he dedicates quite a large part of one of his lecture to the institution of the family - merits and inconveniences. I think it would be worth a read for you (and anyone actually). It’s very stimulating intellectually and it gives rather a balanced view of some of the things you talked about in that comment. Plus, Foucault was not a christian - so he doesn’t put forward this view point predominantly (despite a lot of his study being based on Christian values put into place by Jesuits.)
Hope you’ve got some time to stimulate the grey/gray matter.
Just interested to know, are you currently studying and what qualifications do you hold in relation to your theories/facts/theses.
Cheers,
Marc
It does seem that you won’t listen to any argument anyone gives - I can imagine it would be the same even if it comes from someone who agrees completely with you.
Answer: If you look at my posts you’ll see that I read everything addressed to me very carefully and respond to every point raised and question asked. Also you’ll see that most of the points I make and questions I ask are completely ignored by the people they are addressed to including you.
I’ve been reading an interesting book recently. It’s a series of transcripts of lectures given by Michel Foucault - probably the most influential 20th century French philosopher after Sartre (who also makes an interesting read).
Answer: Great, but this is the 21rst century.
The book is called ‘Psychiatric Power’ and it discusses the nature of what he calls ‘discipline’ - I put the word ‘discipline’ like this because it’s actually not the average concept of the word. He uses it in contrast of the word ’sovereignty’ and again it’s all very interesting.
Answer: Perhaps it is but this is baseball season. I have more important reading to do.
The reason I’m talking about it is because he dedicates quite a large part of one of his lecture to the institution of the family - merits and inconveniences. I think it would be worth a read for you (and anyone actually). It’s very stimulating intellectually and it gives rather a balanced view of some of the things you talked about in that comment. Plus, Foucault was not a christian - so he doesn’t put forward this view point predominantly (despite a lot of his study being based on Christian values put into place by Jesuits.)
Answer: Doesn’t sound that interesting to me.
Hope you’ve got some time to stimulate the grey/gray matter.
Answer: Same to you.
Just interested to know, are you currently studying and what qualifications do you hold in relation to your theories/facts/theses.
Answer: I have a minor in Religion from Muhlenburg College and in high school three years of Classical Greek. I’ll list the courses I took if you want but I really don’t see what this has to do with anything.
There’s a difference between responding and thinking/weighing up the arguments. We see things from different perspectives obviously.
About the qualifications/study, I was just wondering what qualified you to make such ‘loud’ arguments and whether or not you had learned your writing/debating technique at an institution or just homegrown. But you know, I wouldn’t say it makes that great a difference on someone’s ability to use reason either way - it just comes down to attitudes and perceptions at the end of the day (discussion on issues I mean, not the actual truth)
Marc
Marc,
Like most people I do think about the substance of arguments other people make before I respond to them. Right now you seem concerned with the style of my arguments rather than the substance, which is fine. We can talk about that and your comment about using reason. On the thread about Texas and the teaching of evolution on May 22 at 1:59 pm you said: “Are you a generalist? Because you’re really pushing the theory of generalisation.” The answer is perhaps, but it is interesting that you would make that observation. I solve problems almost exclusively using abstract reasoning because that is what comes natural to me. Abstract reasoning is the process of perceiving issues and reaching conclusions through the use of symbols or generalizations rather than having to rely on concrete factual information. When factual information is available it is process of generalizing from concrete examples and experiences to larger, broader principles.
As far as my academic qualifications I didn’t do well in English so I have no writing skills from that and I was never on a debating team. I did have a class in critical thinking in which all the common logical fallacies were dissected. Most of them had Latin names, which not only tells us they’ve been around for a long time but also we learned almost everyone uses them. Fortunately we learned how to spot these things when other people make them and also hopefully be not so apt to make them ourselves. In my debating technique I’m more inclined to knock over other people’s arguments and show the fallacies in them rather than try to make a case for a positive belief. People are offended when I do or anyone else does this if it’s an argument that supports some of their beliefs on something even if they weren’t the ones who posted the argument. I guess that would seem ‘loud’ to those who disagree with an argument and seem ‘forceful’ to those who agree with it. Like you said we see things from different perspectives. I can tell that you see things from your perspective but I don’t really know what it is. In general I mean.
That was a good answer. I liked the tone a lot more - nice work.
My perspective on this is that if a baby is born breathing and moving his/her arms, then anyone who argues any kind of right on the part of the women who killed it is either a) incredibly disturbed b) perverse or c) completely lacking in humility because they refuse to back down from an argument. Quite the ugly quality.
That’s my perspective on the article itself - about Abortion, well, that’s not really in question here so much as infantacide.
Marc
Marc,
Let me put this subject in perspective for you. Suppose you were one of the Israelites with Moses or Joshua when they received one of the several commands from God to commit genocide and infanticide. Would you have gone along with the rest of the Israelites and murdered women and children and defenseless prisoners like the Israelites supposedly did? Or would your conscience have told you these acts were wrong and would you have objected and not committed any of these acts?
It’s more complex than the black and white question you think it is.
Those ‘genocides’ that you are talking about were instances when Israel had committed a sin which God had prohibited - usually their biggest sin was their pride in thinking they knew better than God, but obviously they did lots of things so it changes from time to time.
God commanded this purging of people. It does not seem humane but God is not human. Equally, we do not understand the full holiness of God - I cannot claim to give an answer more satisfactory than that.
Let me first be specific about the stories I am talking about. I’m referring to the incursions in which the Israelites supposedly annihilated entire people groups such as the Midianites and Amorites. Women and children were purposely killed according to the Bible not to mention the rape and forced marriage of virgins. Now knowing what you know today, being the person you are today, project yourself to that time and tell me if you would follow the commands to kill women and children or if your conscience would prevent you from doing so.
Of course I don’t believe the Bible and so I’m quite sure the Exodus and Conquest are completely mythical events. I don’t believe God ever flooded the earth in a fit of anger nor did any God or the Israelites commit any of the atrocities described in the Bible attributed to them. In fact if there is a God the Bible is the most blasphemous collection of literature there is. I don’t think any God would behave like that, kill women and children or anyone for that matter. I doubt that you really would either. I asked the question to make you think but that won’t happen unless you make yourself answer the question.
At the risk of sounding glib or mater of fact… God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in it. When the “Sons of God” mated with the daughters of men, it created a despicable race of giant, blood thirsty, flesh creatures. The blood got so mixed, that even though the entire existence of mankind, except for 8 (?) humans, the gene pool continued to propagate the horrific race of human flesh. Noah’s cursed son, Ham was the father of all the nations Israel were to utterly destroy. I think the “gene pool” of the Nephtalim went through Ham. this was the reason for the giant races Israel met up against. The most cursed, evil, despicable human flesh passed through the loins of Ham.
We also know that it was Yahweh Elohiym that fought for Israel. Yes, the “Chosen of Yahweh” wielded the sword and was supposed to kill ALL the inhabitants of the heathen nations. Also, it is God’s choice what He wants to do with the “vessels” he formed out of clay. The souls of mankind are His to do with as He pleases. Everything Father God does is righteous and we will not understand everything. Father Yahweh “curses whom He will curse and bless whom He will bless.” We simply must understand that the races He told Israel to utterly destroy, was cursed from the beginning, being earmarked for destruction. To bring it a little farther, all humans are born with the curse of sin.
Therefore, it is totally within the purview of our Mighty, Awesome, Creator and Father God named Yahweh, to command what He will for His people to do; for which, we must do and realize it is the RIGHT thing to do!
At the risk of sounding glib or mater of fact… God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in it. When the “Sons of God” mated with the daughters of men, it created a despicable race of giant, blood thirsty, flesh creatures. The blood got so mixed, that even though the entire existence of mankind, except for 8 (?) humans, the gene pool continued to propagate the horrific race of human flesh. Noah’s cursed son, Ham was the father of all the nations Israel were to utterly destroy. I think the “gene pool” of the Nephtalim went through Ham. this was the reason for the giant races Israel met up against. The most cursed, evil, despicable human flesh passed through the loins of Ham. We also know that it was Yahweh Elohiym that fought for Israel. Yes, the “Chosen of Yahweh” wielded the sword and was supposed to kill ALL the inhabitants of the heathen nations. Also, it is God’s choice what He wants to do with the “vessels” he formed out of clay. The souls of mankind are His to do with as He pleases. Everything Father God does is righteous and we will not understand everything. Father Yahweh “curses whom He will curse and bless whom He will bless.” We simply must understand that the races He told Israel to utterly destroy, was cursed from the beginning, being earmarked for destruction. To bring it a little farther, all humans are born with the curse of sin.Therefore, it is totally within the purview of our Mighty, Awesome, Creator and Father God named Yahweh, to command what He will for His people to do; for which, we must do and realize it is the RIGHT thing to do!
John May,
As long as there are people who think the way you do there will never be peace on Earth.
Bernie
I am familiar to your writings and is evident that you have the spirit of the anti-Messiah. You will never understand. You have the “spirit of slumber” and blindness. We were talking about the Old Covenant and Israel being obedient to Yahweh’s will. This earth is God’s. He has a plan. All life is His and death is in His hands. I am not talking about war as the will of man. Father Yahweh allows people to make war, sin and blaspheme His name. He allows you to do and say anything you like without blasting you off this earth. God allowed the heathen nations to come up against Israel as punishment. However, regardless of what happens on this earth, there is a “payday.” We all are but clay vessels. Does not the Potter have total sovereignty over His vessels. He can smash them if He wants. He is the maker and there is a divine, righteous reason for destruction. See, when the flesh is dead, life does not end. The soul will return to our Maker and stand judgment. Death, from life on this earth, is looked at totally different from Heaven’s perspective.
Peace on earth is without the rule and reign of Jesus Messiah. IMPOSSIBLE. Moreover, Peace, true peace, is in the regenerated spirit of Man, inhabited by the Spirit of God. God’s Peace IS there in the midst of life’s storms and mans wars. How ’bout you. Do you want this peace. You talk about peace. Make Ye’shua Messiah your Saviour by repenting, turning to God, and calling out His name, asking Him to save you. Do this sincerely and you will have the peace on earth you look for. Otherwise, there will be no peace in your life, then you will leave this earth and enter into an eternal chaos, torment and total absence of love, peace and GOD.
WOW, I am sorry for this. I don’t know how I responded to the wrong topic. I was responding to the topic of God asking Israel to destroy the nations. Please forgive the response of my previous blogs. They were definitley off topic. I was not responding to the abortion topic. I really apologize. Short and sweet, Abortion is murder!!!
I know how I got to the wrong topic. Twitter link in response to God having Israel destroy the Midianites, Ammorites, etc…. sent me to this place. I responded with my view without reading the main topic. Teach me to assume. Embarrassing lesson.
Even acknowledging that John May thought he was responding to a different topic, he’s still in need of some OT theological training.
John,
I sent out that twitter link for people to respond to Bernie’s comment concerning the Midianites and Amorites:
So you have the right thread! (Though, as you pointed out, the original post was on quite a different topic).
Thanks for the input!
First, why is this blog appending “May” to all the names. I may be “thick” and not seeing what “May” means. Anyway, it’s not a point of contention. It’s kinda cute… it makes us all of the family “May.” We’re all related…! I know, don’t be glib.
As far as the Old Testament theological training: The lineage of Ham is correct. He is the “father” of the “…ites” that God told Israel to destroy (Gen 9:22-27 & 10:6-20). God had cursed him and the generations to follow. Our Father Creator has a plan, staged the events and instructed Israel to carry out HIS WILL. We are the “clay.” How can we come up against our Creator and say, “You have no right to do what you do!” In the words of a very powerful, but imaginary people, “resistence is futile!“ It is foolish, at best, to run in opposition to God who is the Creator & Ruler of all things seen and unseen. Though Righteous and Holy in all His ways, He could snuff out life with a thought, all life…!!!Pooofff!!! Gone!! It’s like a chihuahua coming up against a hungry Lion; foolish, futile, crazy and, pardon this but…, !!stupid!! This parenthetical event in eternity called “existence on planet earth” is for a much more grand and noble purpose than most comprehend. His scripture even state, regarding clay:
Job 10:9 Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?
Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
Jeramiah 18:6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: Thus says the LORD, behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.
Our CREATOR has the right to do with His creation as He wishes. But, it is for a purpose which fits in His plan. You may raise your fist to Him but how futile and foolish!! He is God. If you don’t like what He is doing, you don’t know Him and are in desperate need of Him. H can do anything He wishes to do regardless of whether or not we understand. God gave every Nation, he was going to destroy, a chance to repent! Eternity is Father’s. Raising your fist and declaring God is wrong or unrighteous in His judgments, is dangerous ground for anyone to stand.
It’s quite a paradox, Bernie, to be contrary to Father God and be a believer; therefore, I will assume (I know–dangerous) that you are a non-believer. This means you haven’t experienced the awesome power of the Spirit of God coursing through your spiritual veins. In fact, you have no spirit, it’s dead. You’re running on “soul-power.” (That’s truly an energy crisis). So,…. It is futile to converse with you except to say that, Yeshua is the only way, the only truth, on the sum total of all existence, there’s no other way to eternity with our Father Creator God except through the blood of Jesus.(totally parphrased from John 14:6 (ESV)
“Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
So, my friend, the peace of all existence is in Jesus. If you have peace as a non-believer, know this, the peace with Jesus is infinitly deeper than what the world’s system of belief gives. I totally understand the opposition to God, as a non-believer, there’s no choice. So, it’s futile to dialogue any longer on this topic. You either need the awesome forgiveness and redemption of God, through Yeshua Messiah, or you are a believer & just need to submit and be discipled by a “weathered” brother in the Lord to understand, just a smidgeon, of how our Holy, Righteous and Just Heavenly Father God operates; a little goes a long way.
God bless you Bernie and all those who are reading this and those who are in opposition to Jesus Christ.
OOOoooooo. duh!!! It’s May!!! I am so embarrassed. I just couldn’t understand why “May” appeared after everyone’s name and people’s response to me was, “John May.” OK… I’ve been humbled to my knees. If you could see me now, though alone, I’m red as a beet!!
John,
No need to be embarrassed, others have made the same mistake this month. :)
I just added a “pipe” character between the names and dates on comments to make them easier to distinguish between each other.
John,
Join the club! I wrote to “Dan May” earlier this week. :)
Have any thoughts on why a good God commanded the total destruction of the Midianites & Amorites? Weigh in here
Yeah because God isn’t good. Haven’t you read Chris Hitchens book? Defining murder, genocide, infanticide, wars of aggression as “good” because anything God does is supposedly automatically good just because he does them, is very dangerous and the cause of all the problems in the world today. The word” good” like the words “love” and “truth” have been redefined by Christians in terms of their God. Christians must always distort the language like this to promote their evil and false doctrines and dogmas.
“anything God does is supposedly automatically good just because he does them, is very dangerous and the cause of all the problems in the world today. ”
I hardly think so Bernie. Not ALL the problems in the world today - not even to a majority of problems is my suspicion.
If you are talking in the context of George W. Bush’ claims that Iraq was a war ordained by God, perhaps I might agree with your statement - perhaps not, I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion.
However, I do not think you can say this statement honestly, not when so much that God commanded NOT to happen happens anyway - things which are, on the moral conscience and collective conscious, despicalble. Despots will always exist and the horrifying truth is that at the base of us all, we are those power-hungry, murderous, adulterous men.
If you cannot accept this, perhaps you don’t really know yourself - or it is also possible that you’re deceiving yourself.
I like the song by Dory Previn called, “Doppelganger.” It’s a great illustration of the “dual-nature ” of mankind. In another sense, there is only one nature to a man and our tyrannical actions are only a product of this nature.
To excuse ourselves is a weak defence.
Marc
“Men rarely (if ever) managed to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.” - Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988)
Your God is imaginary. You have not a shred of evidence that any God exists at all yet you have the arrogance to tell the rest of us what your God wants from us and how it wants us to live. And you are wrong. Religion is the root cause of every problem that exists in the world today. Christianity is the worst tragedy that the world has ever known.
Seems to me that you are characterised by your own diagnosis Bernie: arrogance to tell the rest of us that our belief is imaginary andsequently how you would have us live. Does this make you a god?
In under 50 words, I’d like you to give me 5 problems (clearly stated) that you think religion is the cause of and I will give you an alternative reason.
I challenge you.
Marc
Bernie, it truly is a pleasure to have you arguing your point on this blog. The fact of the matter is: you, at this time, are unreachable. You deny the only substantiation of Truth, the Bible (GOD’S Word). In your court, our evidence is inadmissible. If, per chance, you were to … believe (not just acknowledge) the Bible is the authoritative, God breathed, and is the absolute truth of our existence and code of conduct, God would unlock the mysteries of life and spiritual truths of our eternal God, I am (meaning, the pre-eminent, ever existent, constant state of NOW, timeless) and Holy Precious Father. And, of course, his equally glorious and pure Son Jesus, His Messiah and the Power of God, His Holy Spirit.
God’s written Word is locked to unbelievers. It is absolute foolishness to those who are perishing. So, when you, and others in your same “state of soul” will never understand what we are saying. The Bible is only understood in the “Holy of Holies” in man; that is, the spirit of man, the habitation, the Tabernacle “dwelling” of Yahweh, the “Tent of Meeting”. There are so many types and shadows, things that coincide. Authors, hundreds, even thousands of years apar,t bringing revelation and writing inspired Word, confirming each other. You will not understand this or anything we have said in this blog, it is total absurdity to think that God (made in man’s image) would do such a thing.
So Bernie, and others of the same mind, the Gospel has been proclaimed to you and that’s it. There’s no reason to attempt to make clear spiritual principals when the first thing to learn, that is, the “key” to all understanding, has been rejected. You have rejected the Gospel, you rejected Jesus, you have rejected the Holy Spirit. You have not rejected us, you have rejected Yeshua in us. For this reason, my spirit grieves for you. So, may the Holy Ghost goad your spirit to the point of intense irritation, knock you off your “high horse” and the light of Jesus would blind you to all the world’s humanistic views and reveal the Glory of God unto salvation. The Lord Jesus Bless You!!
Your beliefs ARE imaginary and the fact that you have to deny known scientific facts to hang on to them is proof of that. I’m not telling you or anyone else how to live. I don’t care how other people live. I shouldn’t have to point out that I don’t think I’m a god, YOU do. You refuse to accept the facts of your origins and instead claim to be a god who can live forever. Here are five problems religion is the cause of that manifest themselves in things like wars, honor killings, suicide bombings and abortion clinic bombings, the degradation of women broken marriages, child abuse and like I said every other problem in the world.
1. We are still suffering the consequences of the almost 2000 year long war on science and medical progress fought by Bible believers.
2. Non-religious people say it distorts the ultimate concept of God. I’ll agree since I think the ultimate correct concept of God is that no God exists.
3. Cultural prejudice
4. Intolerance
5. Personal problems such as escapism, excessive guilt, intimacy and life-avoidance issues.
John,
Bernie, it truly is a pleasure to have you arguing your point on this blog.
Answer: I bet.
The fact of the matter is: you, at this time, are unreachable.
Answer: No, I have an open mind. The problem with that though is that people are always trying to put their own ideas in it. So I filter everything using reason and common sense. You on the other hand have a completely closed mind and are totally unreachable especially by anyone who might try to reason with or talk sense to you.
You deny the only substantiation of Truth, the Bible (GOD’S Word). In your court, our evidence is inadmissible.
Answer: No, truth is self-evident and it never demands belief. The Bible is neither true nor is it God’s Word. It is a man made, man collected and voted on collection of literature that has a lot of man made rumors about it. You have no evidence that anything in the Bible even might be true.
If, per chance, you were to … believe (not just acknowledge) the Bible is the authoritative, God breathed, and is the absolute truth of our existence and code of conduct, God would unlock the mysteries of life and spiritual truths of our eternal God, I am (meaning, the pre-eminent, ever existent, constant state of NOW, timeless) and Holy Precious Father. And, of course, his equally glorious and pure Son Jesus, His Messiah and the Power of God, His Holy Spirit.
Answer: In other words drink the Kool-Aid and believe… believe. Forget it. The Bible talks about angels, demons, Satan, impossibly old people, events we know did not happen, people we know did not exist and a bunch of other nonsense that it is quite impossible for anyone who hasn’t been completely frightened out of their mind to believe.
God’s written Word is locked to unbelievers. It is absolute foolishness to those who are perishing. So, when you, and others in your same “state of soul” will never understand what we are saying. The Bible is only understood in the “Holy of Holies” in man; that is, the spirit of man, the habitation, the Tabernacle “dwelling” of Yahweh, the “Tent of Meeting”.
Answer: You have to tell yourself that it is the unbelievers who don’t understand the Bible in order to rationalize believing such impossible and stupid stories. “It ain’t the parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts I do understand.” – Mark Twain.
There are so many types and shadows, things that coincide. Authors, hundreds, even thousands of years apar,t bringing revelation and writing inspired Word, confirming each other. You will not understand this or anything we have said in this blog, it is total absurdity to think that God (made in man’s image) would do such a thing.
Answer: Of course as with everything else there is a logical scientific explanation for the prophecies in ancient literature. The Bible isn’t the only collection speaks of prophecy and fulfillment. The set up and payoff of prophecy and fulfillment is part of most ancient fiction. Let me use an analogy to explain: A traveler sees an archer in the woods and notices five arrows in five trees each one right dead center in the middle of a white circle. The traveler approaches the archer and asks, “How did you ever become such a great shot? How did you get all those arrows so perfectly in the middle of those circles?” “Easy,” said the archer, ‘”First I shot the arrows and then I painted the circles around them.”
Most non-religious people and everyone familiar with ancient literature know this is how the prophecies in the Bible were supposedly fulfilled. Fictional events were written to conform to earlier prophecies. Leave to Christians to explain the prophecies in the Bible like they do everything else, with magic and supernatural hocus-pocus when a much more likely and obvious explanation is available. Christians cannot explain away all the unfulfilled prophecies though and these are just more insurmountable problems that fundamentalists just simply ignore.
So Bernie, and others of the same mind, the Gospel has been proclaimed to you and that’s it. There’s no reason to attempt to make clear spiritual principals when the first thing to learn, that is, the “key” to all understanding, has been rejected. You have rejected the Gospel, you rejected Jesus, you have rejected the Holy Spirit. You have not rejected us, you have rejected Yeshua in us. For this reason, my spirit grieves for you. So, may the Holy Ghost goad your spirit to the point of intense irritation, knock you off your “high horse” and the light of Jesus would blind you to all the world’s humanistic views and reveal the Glory of God unto salvation. The Lord Jesus Bless You!!
Answer: The problem is that “the Gospel has been proclaimed” to me by other people. I don’t believe other people when they claim to know things they cannot possibly know and rely on what I already know is very bad information. God belief has to be spread by other people because contrary to your claims God does not reveal himself to anyone. No one would ever believe in God or believe the Bible unless other people convinced them to. If the Bible were really true this truth would be self-evident. Instead the Bible is full of a bunch of hokey unbelievable stories and dangerous religious dogma. If there really is a God who wants me to believe in him let him show him self. Human beings are never going to convince me to believe in God. Tell me why you let other people convince you that the Bible is true and to believe in their invisible, silent God.
Bernie,
1. We are still suffering the consequences of the almost 2000 year long war on science and medical progress fought by Bible believers.
Of course, the until the enlightenment, Science was persecuted - not any more. Science is relatively free these days. Certainly, there are things which Science is not allowed to do, but nobody or no organisation/belief has complete freedom to do as they please. I think you will find that the majority of new concepts are rejected by people, not just by Bible believing Christians. If someone were to come and say that they had cloned a human now, I do not think that it would be only Christians speaking out against that. There would surely be numerous other groups such as civil rights activists etc.
2. Non-religious people say it distorts the ultimate concept of God. I’ll agree since I think the ultimate correct concept of God is that no God exists.
Honestly, I do not understand what you mean here. What is “it?” You’re completely free to maintain your ultimate concept of God. In any case, this is not really a problem for society is it? What you think doesn’t matter one bit in the grand scheme of things. Belief is personal - it may be shared, but at the end of the day, individuals are totally free to believe anything they want and I believe this is good.
3. Cultural prejudice
Again, I don’t understand this entirely. I assume you mean censorship/cultural preference. Sure, Christians do speak out against homosexuality and against an array of other things. We believe it is the best way to go. Personally, I believe that when we do not follow God’s rules/statutes as set out in the Bible, that society does not function properly at all. That is why we speak out against these things.
Your perceive it to be a problem of a sick society because you are a product of a sick society. A virus will not attack itself - you will not attack your own sick society and therefore you perceive those who will attack it to be prejudiced or sick.
4. Intolerance
I think you will find, for the majority, intolerant is what Christians are not. The majority of Christians do not bomb abortion clinics, go on crusades or do any number of other vicious things. Naturally, there are some people who end up going past the boundaries of extremity - but remember that there are these people in the secular world too. Terrorist groups are not all products of religious orders.
5. Personal problems such as escapism, excessive guilt, intimacy and life-avoidance issues.
Again, a malinterpretation of scripture can cause this. The problem is not the scripture but the interpretation of mankind. If, for example, I were to read Darwin’s ‘Origin of Species,’ it is fully possible that I would completely misinterpret it and come to a completely different hypothesis than the one intended. This is the way it is with scripture. You say tomato, I say tomato.
Marc
Marc,
Of course, the until the enlightenment, Science was persecuted - not any more. Science is relatively free these days.
Answer: Guess who started this nonsense in Texas about teaching high school students about the supposed weaknesses in evolutionary theory. Was it scientists who know something about the subject and our children’s education? No, it was the Discovery Institute and Christian conservative groups neither of which are qualified to decide the curriculum in our public schools. The reason administrators and scientists spoke up against this nonsense is that there aren’t any scientists writing critiques of the validity of the Theory of Evolution. Scientists argue over the nuances of evolution by natural selection, not over its validity. Guess where these critiques of evolutionary theory would be coming from. Yep, the Discovery Institute is once again attempting to sneak their religious dogma and nonsense into out public schools. They want their hokey pseudo-scientific books to be used a textbooks in our public schools. Two publishers, McGraw-Hill and Holt have made massive alterations in science textbooks and inserted references to Intelligent Design magic in their books under pressure from both the Discovery Institute and Christian conservative groups. I could go on but suffice it to say as long as there are Bible believers there will be people trying to do everything they can to block the advance of science.
I think you will find, for the majority, intolerant is what Christians are not.
Answer: True but the stricter a fundamentalist a person is the more intolerant and bigoted they are. Also the stricter the family the more likely there will be spousal and child abuse in it. Most people who identify themselves as Christian are not considered to be Christians by literal Bible believers except when they want to inflate their numbers and make it seem like their extreme positions, such as yours are, are widely accepted by all Christians. Very few people would pass the fundamentalist requirements for a free ticket to heaven and you know it.
Again, a malinterpretation of scripture can cause this. The problem is not the scripture but the interpretation of mankind.
Answer: Yes this yet another of those insurmountable problems for Bible believers. God writes a book that he knows in advance is ambiguous and bound to be misinterpreted by most people. He already knew it would cause unrealistic expectations among EVERY generation of Christians about the imminent return of Jesus Christ, be the basis for the defense of the institution of slavery for centuries, the justification for many wars of aggression and acts of genocide and infanticide such as with the native Americans, the basis for witch burning, scientific ignorance and persecution of scientists – I could go on.
If, for example, I were to read Darwin’s ‘Origin of Species,’ it is fully possible that I would completely misinterpret it and come to a completely different hypothesis than the one intended. This is the way it is with scripture. You say tomato, I say tomato.
Answer: That’s the problem with creationists. They think Darwin’s book is a description of modern evolutionary theory and it confuses them. Scientists have revised and even refuted much of what Darwin wrote as Darwin noted it would be in the front of his book. Creationist hoaxers point to incorrect information in a book written 150 years ago and pretend to debunk modern science. That’s because they know they have no case against modern science. The people at the Discovery Institute don’t have a clue about modern science. All they have as the same incredible fear of advancing science that you have.