Klinghoffer, Collins, and the Human Genome Project
Filed under News, Philosophy & Science on May 30th, 2009 by Marcus FrenchThe launch of BioLogos from Francis Collins resulted in fierce criticism from David Klinghoffer of the Discovery Institute (Dr. Brown’s review of Klinghoffer’s book “Why The Jews Rejected Jesus” can be found here). He wrote the following concerning theistic evolution on May 28th for Evolution News & Views:
Collins and Giberson are sincere Evangelical Christians — as far as I, a Jew, can tell — and undoubtedly innocent of all guile, but they represent an insidious trend in religious and intellectual life. This genuine opiate of the masses works as a stupor-inducing fog, enveloping the debate about intelligent design versus Darwinism. The fog lulls you with the thought that between the idea of design in nature, and that of no design in nature, there is actually no need to make a choice.
As the battle over human origins continues, I thought it would be worthwhile to look through Collins’ book “The Language of God” and present some of his ideas for thought and dicussion over the next few weeks as I read through it.
The book’s introduction includes a wonderful section concerning the presentation of Dr. Collins’ most well known work, the Human Genome Project, to the world:
But the part of his speech that most attracted public attention jumped from the scientific perspective to the spiritual. “Today,” [Clinton] said, “we are learning the language in which God created life. We are gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the beauty, and the wonder of God’s most divine and sacred gift.”
Was I, a rigorously trained scientist, taken aback at such a blatantly religious reference by the leader of the free world at a moment such as this? Was I tempted to scowl or look at the floor in embarrassment? No, not at all. In fact I had worked closely with the president’s speechwriter in the frantic days just prior to this announcement, and had strongly endorsed the inclusion of this paragraph. When it came time for me to add a few words of my own, I echoed this sentiment: “It’s a happy day for the world. It is humbling for me, and awe-inspiring, to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God.”
What was going on here? Why would a president and a scientist, charged with announcing a milestone in biology and medicine, feel compelled to invoke a connection with God? Aren’t the scientific and spiritual worldviews antithetical, or shouldn’t they at lest avoid appearing in the East Room together? What were the reasons for invoking God in those two speeches? Was this poetry? Hypocrisy? A cynical attempt to curry favor from believers, or to disarm those who might criticize this study of the human genome as reducing humankind to machinery? No. Not for me. Quite the contrary, for me the experience of sequencing the human genome, and uncovering this most remarkable of all texts, was both a stunning scientific achievement and an occasion of worship.
Reading this made my heart leap. Yes! This is what true scientific discovery and the pursuit of truth is about. Peering deeper into the wondrous design of the Universe and the design of man is cause for worshiping He that is the author of life. For “in Him we live and move and have our being.”
Below is a video of Collins on CNN discussing his journey into faith: [Link to Video]
Tags: biologos, creation, david klinghoffer, discovery institute, evolution, francis collins, The Language of God, theistic evolution
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The launch of BioLogos from Francis Collins resulted in fierce criticism from David Klinghoffer of the Discovery Institute (Dr. Brown’s review of Klinghoffer’s book “Why The Jews Rejected Jesus” can be found here). He wrote the following concerning theistic evolution on May 28th for Evolution News & Views:
Answer: Klinghoffer is paid very well to promote his ideas by his employer, the Discovery Institute, which is a Christian disinformation and propaganda machine that is funded by organizations that seek to promote a “Christian-friendly world view,” and force their religious lies and dogma into our public schools.
Collins and Giberson are sincere Evangelical Christians — as far as I, a Jew, can tell — and undoubtedly innocent of all guile, but they represent an insidious trend in religious and intellectual life. This genuine opiate of the masses works as a stupor-inducing fog, enveloping the debate about intelligent design versus Darwinism. The fog lulls you with the thought that between the idea of design in nature, and that of no design in nature, there is actually no need to make a choice.
Answer: Anyone who uses the term “Darwinism” exposes their ignorance of science as I already proved on this blog. In his creationist stupor Klinghoffer cannot understand that no one is saying there is an idea of no design. The design we see in Nature is the result of evolution’s bottom-up design mechanism, something creationists know nothing about so they have no arguments against it. So in typical creationist foolery they create a straw man argument and then pretend to knock it over.
As the battle over human origins continues, I thought it would be worthwhile to look through Collins’ book “The Language of God” and present some of his ideas for thought and dicussion over the next few weeks as I read through it.
Answer: Of course there is no battle over human origins in the scientific community or anywhere else. This battle exists only in the warped and delusional minds of creationists.
The book’s introduction includes a wonderful section concerning the presentation of Dr. Collins’ most well known work, the Human Genome Project, to the world:
Here, let Collins speak for himself:
There is a law of physics called the Second Law of Thermodynamics that states an isolated system’s entropy can never decrease, it can only increase or stay the same. In other words, all changes in isolated systems lead to states of higher disorder. Therefore, the same must be true of our entire universe. However, it is also known that the formation of stars and galaxies, essential for the development of life on Earth, requires a high degree of order. This implies that the universe was once much more ordered than it is now, and therefore it began with a very low entropy.
No serious astrophysicist would write something that stupid. First, entropy is not really about ‘order’ in the cosmological sense; second, stellar formation is really well understood (and not threatened at all by the increasing entropy of the universe), and third, the Big Bang model postulates the lowest possible initial entropy of the universe in any event.
Was I, a rigorously trained scientist, taken aback at such a blatantly religious reference by the leader of the free world at a moment such as this? Was I tempted to scowl or look at the floor in embarrassment? No, not at all. In fact I had worked closely with the president’s speechwriter in the frantic days just prior to this announcement, and had strongly endorsed the inclusion of this paragraph. When it came time for me to add a few words of my own, I echoed this sentiment: “It’s a happy day for the world. It is humbling for me, and awe-inspiring, to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God.”
Answer: Rigorously trained scientist? Sure. Klinghoffer claims to have a BA from Brown but this cannot be verified and as far as I know Brown has no record of Klinghoffer ever attending that school.
David Klinghoffer seems to have nothing to say unless it’s negative.
I applaud Collins for making it safe for Christians to accept evolution without sacrificing their faith.
–Dan
Bernie,
FYI, Dr. Collins and Mr. Klinghoffer are two different people. I think you have them confused. Dr. Collins, who wrote the Language of God, actually is a rigorously trained scientist.
–Dan
Bernie,
1) I find it interesting that Klinghoffer, an Orthodox Jew, would work for a “Christian disinformation and propaganda machine.” Are you saying he’s a Christian? Or at least interested in propagating Christianity through his work?
2) You said: “Of course there is no battle over human origins in the scientific community or anywhere else. This battle exists only in the warped and delusional minds of creationists.” This battle is very real Bernie. Polls have shown that 45% of Americans believe “God created human beings pretty much in tehir present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so,” 38% believe that “human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process” and 13% believe “human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process.” That sounds like there is a battle going on in America!
Then with the launch of BioLogos (Theistic Evolutionists), the continued work with Hugh Ross and RTB (Old Earth Creationists), and the high-profile museum and ministry of Answers in Genesis (Young Earth Creationists), believers in Jesus are divided on the issue as well, or do we not count in your mind as being part of “the scientific community or anywhere else”?
3) Unless you are the author of this post: http://evaluatingchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/francis-collins-creationist/ , you seemed to have copied and pasted somebody else’s work to “answer” an introduction of mine of a quote from Collins’ book concerning his work on the Human Genome Project. I’m sure everyone was waiting with bated breath to see how somebody would “answer” this introduction, we all thank you for your (what seems to be) plagiarized work in debunking what I said. Thanks!
4) You said “Rigorously trained scientist? Sure. Klinghoffer claims to have a BA from Brown but this cannot be verified and as far as I know Brown has no record of Klinghoffer ever attending that school.” Did you actually read my post? The quote was from Collins, not Klinghoffer. And I don’t know anybody that would state that Collins was not a “rigourisly trained sientist.”
–
These “answers” of yours are greatly appreciated. Where would we be without your keen insights into why Klinghoffer was lying when he made a statement he never actually made? Or your copied and pasted “answer” to such an outlandish statement as “The book’s introduction includes a wonderful section concerning the presentation of Dr. Collins’ most well known work, the Human Genome Project, to the world”? I thank you Bernie!
Seriously though, you seem to be antagonistic on a level I’ve rarely if ever seen. I’m all for hard-hitting questions to make people look at why they believe what they believe (that’s what I did in College as I went from a self-described “hardcore agnostic” to a believer in Jesus), but you seem to just take anything that anybody you believe to be a “fundie” Christian says, and come against it, no matter what it is. Repent of this foolishness and turn your heart to seeking out truth wherever it may lead. I’ll end with a snippet of a Keith Green song:
Neither Collins nor anyone else has made “it safe for Christians to accept evolution without sacrificing their faith.” Unless of course those Christians who want to adopt the evolutionary faith don’t mind sacrificing the Bible.
Marcus,
I find it interesting that Klinghoffer, an Orthodox Jew, would work for a “Christian disinformation and propaganda machine.” Are you saying he’s a Christian? Or at least interested in propagating Christianity through his work?
Answer: Klinghoffer wrote a spiritual memoir about his journey from Reform Judaism to becoming ba’al tshuva another word for messianic Jew, which is another phrase for Christian, as you know. My name is Bernie. I’m more of a Jew than Klinghoffer ever was. Klinghoffer is a turncoat just like Dr. Brown who also out of fear of eternal punishment decided to join the enemies of Judaism and turn his back on his ancestors and relatives. Jews like that make me want to puke.
2) You said: “Of course there is no battle over human origins in the scientific community or anywhere else. This battle exists only in the warped and delusional minds of creationists.” This battle is very real Bernie. Polls have shown that 45% of Americans believe “God created human beings pretty much in tehir present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so,” 38% believe that “human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process” and 13% believe “human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process.” That sounds like there is a battle going on in America!
Answer: Yes, but ONLY in America where it’s okay to be wrong. Science isn’t done according to public opinion. One reason the American public is so ignorant and confused about science is rightwing fanatics have dumbed our public schools down and virtually eliminated the teaching of the sciences in order to make our public school students more susceptible to the dogma and delusions of a particular religion which just happens to be YOUR religion. Another reason is the very expensive disinformation campaign waged by creationuts in this country in order to confuse an already ignorant and undereducated public, which distorts the true nature of science and purposely defames and misquotes individual scientists. BTW there is no such thing as academic freedom in elementary and secondary schools. Teachers cannot teach whatever they want any way they want. Teachers have to stick to the curriculum. There is academic freedom in higher education though and the Christian academic community teaches evolution and common descent of t its own volition much to the chagrin of the creationists. This point is so very humiliating for you people, so destructive to your case for creation, you just choose to ignore it.
Then with the launch of BioLogos (Theistic Evolutionists), the continued work with Hugh Ross and RTB (Old Earth Creationists), and the high-profile museum and ministry of Answers in Genesis (Young Earth Creationists), believers in Jesus are divided on the issue as well, or do we not count in your mind as being part of “the scientific community or anywhere else”?
Answer: Answers in Genesis is a religious ministry that gets a religious tax exemption as long as they remain a non-scientific and totally religious organization as they are now and always have been registered with the IRS. No one from there has ever written a scientifically peer-reviewed paper or book and if they did they would immediately lose their religious tax-exemption and they know it. Too bad most of you creationists who worship these liars are unaware of this isn’t it?
Theistic evolution is just as stupid as creationism. Why would God use a method of creation that makes it appear that he doesn’t exist? The only reason some conservative Christians are accepting evolution at this late date is because they know the public is now laughing at them and will no longer buy their young earth nonsense.
3) Unless you are the author of this post: http://evaluatingchristianity.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/francis-collins-creationist/ , you seemed to have copied and pasted somebody else’s work to “answer” an introduction of mine of a quote from Collins’ book concerning his work on the Human Genome Project. I’m sure everyone was waiting with bated breath to see how somebody would “answer” this introduction, we all thank you for your (what seems to be) plagiarized work in debunking what I said. Thanks!
Answer: If you check you’ll see that I credit the people who wrote the articles I paste. Leaving the author’s name off this one was an oversight by me. I don’t steal intellectual property the way creationists do on these blogs.
4) You said “Rigorously trained scientist? Sure. Klinghoffer claims to have a BA from Brown but this cannot be verified and as far as I know Brown has no record of Klinghoffer ever attending that school.” Did you actually read my post? The quote was from Collins, not Klinghoffer. And I don’t know anybody that would state that Collins was not a “rigourisly trained sientist.”
Answer: Collins might be a rigorously trained scientist in one area of science but he’s an idiot when it comes to cosmology and quite the ignorant fool when he puts on the dunce cap of the Christian. Just look at his conversion experience as he describes it. It’s ridiculous and about as unscientific as it could be.
These “answers” of yours are greatly appreciated. Where would we be without your keen insights into why Klinghoffer was lying when he made a statement he never actually made? Or your copied and pasted “answer” to such an outlandish statement as “The book’s introduction includes a wonderful section concerning the presentation of Dr. Collins’ most well known work, the Human Genome Project, to the world”? I thank you Bernie!
Answer: Dan already pointed out that I confused the words of Collins with Klinghoffer. All Christians sound alike to me. Big deal.
Seriously though, you seem to be antagonistic on a level I’ve rarely if ever seen. I’m all for hard-hitting questions to make people look at why they believe what they believe (that’s what I did in College as I went from a self-described “hardcore agnostic” to a believer in Jesus), but you seem to just take anything that anybody you believe to be a “fundie” Christian says, and come against it, no matter what it is. Repent of this foolishness and turn your heart to seeking out truth wherever it may lead. I’ll end with a snippet of a Keith Green song:
Answer: Spare me the song lyrics and Bible passages please. Your claim to be a hardcore agnostic is intellectually dishonest. First of all there’s no such thing and second I say that you have always believed there is a God and you were raised a Christian.
These song lyrics are just dumb. Telling me I don’t have to be so smart and then telling me to soften my heart which really means to soften my head. Not happening.
I’ll leave you with something much more profound:
“Truth is something living, moving, which has no resting place, which is in no temple, mosque or church, which no religion, no teacher, no philosopher, nobody can lead you to… There is only you – your relationship with others and with the world – there is nothing else… Neither your gods, nor your science can save you, can bring you psychological certainty; and you have to accept that you can trust in absolutely nothing.” – J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) Indian-born philospher/teacher.
“First of all there’s no such thing “
I suppose you bet to tell these guys that they’re wrong too then —> http://www.cuaas.org.uk/”
Marc
P.S. Here’s a quote from another indian man: “An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained.”
Ewan,
Neither Collins nor anyone else has made “it safe for Christians to accept evolution without sacrificing their faith.” Unless of course those Christians who want to adopt the evolutionary faith don’t mind sacrificing the Bible.
Answer: By your own admission it isn’t “safe” for Christians to accept the findings of modern science. In other words you are AFRAID to accept evolutionary theory. You’ve been frightened completely out of your mind by other people into thinking if you believe in evolution you’ll suffer in hell for all eternity. Yet you expect us unbelievers to think you can still make objective decisions about science! Sure. There is no way you can make any kind of unbiased objective decisions about anything especially modern science or the Bible. Your mind is being tortured by the fear induced superstitions you let other people put in your head. I’m not sure about you personally but your posts are literally insane.
To all readers here:
There are a few reasons that I don’t interact here more. The first is that I don’t have the time needed to interact consistently. The second is that this is primarily the place for others to sound off. The third is that some of the posts, especially at times from Bernie, are 100% devoid of truth and rather are full of empty bluster. Why should anyone take the time to refute complete fantasy?
A case in point is Bernie’s recent post where he wrote:
Klinghoffer wrote a spiritual memoir about his journey from Reform Judaism to becoming ba’al tshuva another word for messianic Jew, which is another phrase for Christian, as you know. My name is Bernie. I’m more of a Jew than Klinghoffer ever was. Klinghoffer is a turncoat just like Dr. Brown who also out of fear of eternal punishment decided to join the enemies of Judaism and turn his back on his ancestors and relatives. Jews like that make me want to puke.
Incredible! First, as anyone knows who read the book, David Klinghoffer is an Orhodox Jew, not a Messianic Jew. In fact, in his book Why the Jews Rejected Jesus, he devoted an entire section to arguing against Messinic Jewish view. EVERYONE knows this is true. Second, baal teshuvah, which is literally a master of repentance, refers to a secular Jew who becomes an Orthodox, traditional Jew, not a Messianic Jew. Ask any rabbi in the world or check any Hebrew dictionary in the world if you have any doubt of this. Then, as for my own story, I did not become a believer in Jesus because of fear of hell. Rather, it was as a result of God convicting me of my sins and then revealing His deep love to me. That’s how I was transformed. Somehow, Bernie claims to know my story better than I do!
So, for these reasons, I’m not a frequent poster here, in particular in terms of interaction with Bernie, whose very arguments disqualify themselves.
Of course the real reason Dr. Brown doesn’t interact here more is because I Bernie have refuted everything he has posted since I’ve been on this blog. Anyone can go back through the posts here and see this for them selves. Also I’ve asked Dr. Brown several humiliating questions, which has chosen to ignore rather than see his answers demolished and his intellectual dishonesty exposed for all to see. Dr. Brown’s claims that my posts are “100% devoid of truth and rather are full of empty bluster” is 100% devoid of truth itself and full of his usual empty bluster. Once again I will solidly refute another of Dr. Brown’s false claims:
Here’s a quote from Klinghoffer that is documented and posted on the Internet:
David Klinghoffer, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, …. “As a Christian I learned two things from my Jewish Messiah”
Here’s the title of one of Klinghoffer’s articles:
What the Talmud Really Says about Christ Almighty by D. Klinghoffer Religion BookLine — Publishers Weekly, 1/31/2007
Now I ask anyone, what Jew would call Christ “Almighty?” Accepting the deity of Christ is something no Jew would ever do because that is what makes a person a Christian – like David Klinghoffer has repeatedly admitted that he is. If Dr. Brown ever does post something that is true or factually correct I’ll be the first to point it out. Until then I’ll keep refuting all the falsehoods he posts so his followers can see his blatant disregard for the truth, his shallow understanding of the facts and the kind of man he really is.
Bernie,
I’ll tell you this: You’re always good for the comic relief! In all seriousness, however, you are now engaging in either willful deception or you are so totally deceived that you are no longer able to distinguish between truth and error.
Let’s look at your first “proof.”
Here’s a quote from Klinghoffer that is documented and posted on the Internet:David Klinghoffer, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, …. “As a Christian I learned two things from my Jewish Messiah”
100% false! This is the truth of the matter: David Klinghoffer, the Orthodox Jew (as everyone in the world knows, except for Bernie!), wrote a regular article in the Jewish daily called the Forward. He wrote an article in April, 2008, entitled “I’d Rather Fight than Switch,” posted here: http://www.forward.com/articles/13262/
He writes, of course, as an Orthodox Jew. In the comments section to his article, someone named D. E. Teodoru posted a response, part of which included these words, “As a Christian I learned two things from my Jewish Messiah.”
So, let’s start here, Bernie: First, admit you are wrong about Klinghoffer; second, admit you are wrong about the definition of the Hebrew phrase baal teshuvah; third, admit you are wrong in your post here about who said “As a Christian.”
If you can’t or won’t do this, the discussion with me is absolutely over, even if time did permit. Consider it three strikes and you are totally out.
Klinghoffer referred to Christ as “Almighty” accidentally letting the cat and his hoax out of the bag. Once again you conveniently ignore the part of my argument that totally demolishes your case and focus on something else. I could point to other slips he’s made in the past. So Dr. Brown it looks to me as though YOU have two choices. Either admit you were duped by Klinghoffer’s claims to be a Jew or admit you went along with the lie. As far as any discussion with me being over my original post wasn’t directed to you and my responses were addressed to someone else. It’s your blog but if you don’t have time to interact on it why inject yourself into conversations that have nothing to do with you?
Bernie,
Are you willing to admit that you were wrong when you attributed the phrase ““As a Christian I learned two things from my Jewish Messiah” to Klinghoffer?
Also, are you willing to admit that you were wrong when you said “ba’al tshuva” is “another word for messianic Jew”?
Bernie,
You have been banned from commenting on Voice of Revolution for violating our commenting rules ( see http://voiceofrevolution.askdrbrown.org/commenting/ ).
Marcus French
Editor
From Dr. Michael L. Brown:
Marcus French
Editor
I appreciate having the opportunity to interact in forums like this, but such venues get ruined for the 90% of decent folk who would like to participate when they get taken over by certain individuals. Imagine, if the founder of the site even has to throw their hands up and say:
“So, for these reasons, I’m not a frequent poster here, in particular in terms of interaction with Bernie, whose very arguments disqualify themselves.”
… then why would anyone else want to participate?! So I appreciate this action, I think its the kind of supervision needed in things like this to save them from being ruined.
Best~