God Has a Better Way: Video Invitation
Filed under News, Sexuality & Gender on July 10th, 2009 by Marcus FrenchVideo from Dr. Brown concerning God Has a Better Way: [Link to Video]
Tags: charlotte, Coalition of Conscience, Dr. Michael Brown, gay pride, god has a better way, homosexuality
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While I think Dr. Brown is usually very intellectually honest in his beliefs, there are some very problematic elements in this video.
It’s completely valid to advertise a demonstration at the gay pride parade.
However, most of this video is conspiracy propaganda.
Tell me this, what do….
A photographer being sued for not taking gay clients
Gay pastors being ordained by a gay-friendly Church
Social workers knowingly giving children to pedophiles,
Pre-schoolers being educated about homosexual parenting,
and Schools letting children pick their gender identity have in common?
I’m not sure, myself. These are issues found in public social work, education, church denominations, and civil courts, and seem to be pretty rare, considering it’s hard to find many references online to them. They also have relation to gay marriage or civil rights. Pre-marital sex is legal in this country, but you don’t see 4 year olds getting picture books called “Jenny and John’s Sleepover after Prom” These inappropriate nursery school books would be bizarre to just about anyone, even homosexuals.
Are these signs of the storm that homosexuals are taking over America? Quite frankly, it sounds like paranoia that has been used for other minority religions and worldviews in the past.
When schools were being integrated, with white and black children in the same classrooms, I bet you could scour the news to find examples of:
Black teenagers bringing drugs into a school
Two black bullies saying to a small white girl “This is our school now, go home.”
Teachers having to slow down their lesson plans because of undereducated Negroes not keeping up with their homework.
I could go on, but I think you can get the picture. You can make a case against interracial integration and just about any other concept if you pick the right isolated news stories.
My question is, what is this video actually arguing against? Gay marriage? Gay rights? Maybe the video is arguing for the right to discriminate against gays no matter what?
I’m not sure because the montage of admittedly “scary facts” seems to to have no cohesion except in fear mongering. “Beware of the Gay Agenda.” In California, I know a number of gay people, and they’d be hardpressed to tell me where the gay conspiracy meetings are. Maybe you should register the domain GayWatch.com if it’s not already taken by the JewWatch people who think the people of Israel are up to something as well.
The fact that I keep hearing the same 4-5 stories about pro-gay outrage makes me wonder if there really is that much public damage going on by gay acceptance, or if this is just a front to scare people into approving discrimination against innocents.
Your horror of a liberal Baptist church ordaining gays on their own volition is proof that this video isn’t about your religious freedom as a Christian. It goes beyond that You’re worried that churches will allow gays to officiate ceremonies by their own free choice. What if churches across America approved of homosexuals because secular society approved of them? That is pretty scary, huh?
I take it you’re arguing for the right to disciminate against gays. It’s a free country, I guess. I just don’t see how you can claim Christians are the ones being threatened if you are the ones who are trying to withhold freedoms from others.
To sum of your message: “Christians should have the right to withold gay rights.” That’s a new one.
If your religion hates a people, your business should be able to discriminate against them in hiring and servicing. I understand.
Maybe Muslim American doctors should have the right to not to inseminate a Jewish couple because they’re bringing one more Allah-offender into the world? It’s their religious freedom, correct?
–Dan
Dan -
I don’t know you, but I have certainly encountered many who sound like you and my experience tells me that you are either a) a shill for another group whose purpose is to undermine Dr. Brown and his efforts or b) one who is harmed & too educated for his own good.
Your constant critique of every article and position betrays you as the very thing that you rail against. It is certain that you have been injured by the “church” (small “c” quotated), even if you are only a shill.
Forgive me for being a frail person in a fallen world and forgive those who have hurt you. As I counsel many people with your same concerns, “Please don’t go to hell because we don’t yet fully function as the Genuine Body.”
No clever argument can change your mind, nor would I want it to.
I have added you to my prayer list in that you might encounter the Living God and be apprehended by the Holy God.
Let us ENCOURAGE one another to love & good deeds. And, yes, that encouragement maybe in the form of a rod or a hug, but it is administered in Love…..finally…..to paraphrase Tozer…to concentrate only upon one aspect of God while diminishing the other aspects; it is the road to denominationalism.
Quote: The fact that I keep hearing the same 4-5 stories about pro-gay outrage makes me wonder if there really is that much public damage going on by gay acceptance, or if this is just a front to scare people into approving discrimination against innocents.”
As someone who frequents this blog, I imagine that you are hearing Dr. Brown’s research being re-presented. The argument that is being put forth is simply that we as Christians are losing our right to morally object to homosexuality.
Hatred is a buzz word. Your use of it is Ad-hominem. I morally object to prostitution and illicit drug use. Does this mean that I’m guilty of hating prostitutes and drug-dealers?
Quote: “I could go on, but I think you can get the picture. You can make a case against interracial integration and just about any other concept if you pick the right isolated news stories.”
The manner in which the stories are given says nothing about the invalidity of the source. Injustice can be inflicted on a small scale, with or without the attention of the national media.
Rob,
Thank you for reading what I wrote. My objection is not to Christians having a strong aversion to homosexuality. My objection is to this site trying to get the relatively safe American Christian community afraid of a homosexual takeover through fear mongering and isolated news stories. Dr. Brown had to get 4-5 stories from the entire world, because there weren’t enough available in the United States to make his case.
Even if the stories were all valid, the spareness would be significant. But are they all valid?
Let’s take a look at one of the stories Dr. Brown reports. 4:55 in the video.
“Crystal Dixon, an African-American woman working at the University of Toledo was fired because she took exception to an editorial in her local newspaper where the editor said skin color was just like homosexuality, you’re born with it, you can’t change. She took exception to it, and was fired.”
Sounds like the university was worried about PR. Maybe the termination was excessive? Let’s look at what she actually said from World Net Daily http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=63459:
“I take great umbrage at the notion that those choosing the homosexual lifestyle are ‘civil rights victims.’ Here’s why. I cannot wake up tomorrow and not be a black woman.’”
This isn’t a matter of her believing homosexuals can change. This is her stating that discimination against homosexuals is an invalid complaint because they are actively choosing their sexuality, and can be heterosexual the next day. She’s not only saying they have enough rights now, but if those rights today are taken away, it’s not a violation.
“There are consequences for each of our choices, including those who violate God’s divine order.”
“It is base human nature to revolt and become indignant when the world or even God Himself, disagrees with our choice that violates His divine order,”
This is a HUMAN RESOURCES vice president saying these things. She has homosexuals working in the university and it’s her requirement to protect them from harassment and discrimination. An English Literature teaching assistant will need to see her if he thinks he was denied a promotion, or harassed by coworkers for being gay. Is she likely to look at the case fairly if she thinks his being gay is not only a personal choice but a violation of God’s divine order, “resulting in consequences”? On her own site, she puts homosexuality next to lying and stealing for things that offend God.
Whether she’s a good Christian or not, she’s got a terrible attitude for an HR professional in a secular school.
I don’t know how she wouldn’t be fired from any non-Christian college for that one.
If these are the best examples of homosexuals taking over the world, you can rest in ease. You are safe.
The idea that your religious rights are being taken away is ridiculous, unless you think your religious right is to discriminate in employment and services against people your religion does not like.
As I stated earlier, according to Islam, Jews can wake up the next day as Muslims, so it’s not a choice. According to the Koran, Jews blaspheme God daily. Should a Muslim owned business be allowed to turn away Jewish customers?
Is that religious freedom?
What aboud Talmudic law forbidding Jews from doing business with idolators. Should Orthodox Jews be allowed to discriminate against Hindus or *gasp* Jesus worshipping Christians?
You may think you’re making the world a safer place for your faith, but you’re actually just paving the way for greater discriminations which will end back up on Christians in due time.
–Dan
My pleasure, Dan.
The best way that I can explain our position is to say that homosexuality has been a blind spot in evangelicalism for the past few decades. The early attempts made by liberal scholars to present homosexual practice as biblically sanctioned was ignored as fringe scholarship; and gay activism made very few inroads during the Clinton and Bush administrations, despite being very active altogether. What this has resulted in is a gross ignorance among evangelicals as to how to engage the newly socially and religiously empowered GLBT community. I won’t speak for Dr. Brown other than saying that he has a knack for noticing the blindspots in evangelicalism.
Gay marriage, free speech, and public education are concerns of ours because they represent areas of society in which public and private sectors intersect. If Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered lifestyles become officially recognized by the government, they become protected lifestyles. It is conceivable that we could lose our right to object to GLBT practices in a variety of arenas should the government take steps to recognize them and guard them from moral criticism.
…which is why I’m grateful that Dr. Brown is sounding the alarm. :)
The most practical way this is taking place is in public education. In a number states, Parents do not have a right to be informed of (and object to) pro-homosexual curriculum.
Rob,
Tell me what your concerns are here:
A) Gays and Lesbians will feel comfortable being “out,” and some, but not all churches will welcome them, even ordain them. Gays and Lesbians will feel more comfortable and become integrated in society, at the expense of your own Christian values.
B) Organizations will lose their right to discriminate against Gays in serving and hiring, whether secular or Christian.
C) American citizens will lose their 1st amendment right to nonviolently speak how they feel about homosexuality. People will be fined and imprisoned by the Federal and State governments for saying homosexuality is immoral.
It sounds like Dr. Brown and other people on this board are pointing to the nightmare of Category C. So they give evidence from Category B, when their real fear is Category A, that even moderate Christians are rapidly growing tolerant of alternative lifestyles.
Listen. C is never going to happen. Long after the black civil rights movement, it is constitutionally protected to say blacks are stupid, should go back to Africa, or even should be enslaved. You can blog about it or speak about it in your church, and no one will arrest you.
In other countries? I don’t know. You can’t take a trial from the UK or France and say that’s how it will play out in America. The reason you haven’t moved to another country yet is because America is significantly more free than those other countries in terms of speech.
As for Category B, I don’t know what to tell you. Unless you’re willing to let Muslim businesses discriminate against Christians and Jews, then you can’t have it done against gays either.
As for Category A, that’s a personal and religious community issue. Do you really want the government to step in and make it illegal for people of your religion to violate your beliefs?
I’ll tell you what the mirror of yourself is doing in Israel right now. There are fervent Orthodox Jews trying to make prostlyzation illegal, and take away rights of your own missionaries to witness to Israelis. They want the right to forcibly remove you from their community when they see you carrying a New Testament, and are likely to rip it from your hands and burn it, because it’s their religious freedom of their community.
You want to know where your quest is going? THAT is where your quest is going. You guys are taking your own religious beliefs and it’s only the maturity of the rest of the country preventing your spiritual beliefs from becoming law.
–Dan
Hey Dan,
C isn’t a far cry if hate speech legislation is passed without defining what is and what isn’t hate speech.
We come from two fundamentally different presuppositions. Obviously, it isn’t up to the government to regulate religion. I would consider A to be an in-house debate except that overtly embracing sin constitutes apostasy. Otherwise we would never consider using coercion to solve a theological debate.
Marriage involves religion because if it is granted as a right to everyone, then ministers who discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation could be fined. The logic to it is really quite simple. If gays become a recognized minority, then moral opposition becomes tantamount to discrimination.
I don’t think you’ll get much sympathy here if you compare bullying groups like Yad L’achim to American evangelicals.
Rob,
Is there a hate speech bill being passed? I’ve looked over the info, and it’s the same with blacks as with gays. You can say what you want, as long as it doesn’t incite violence.
The only way this could be a conflict with churches is if a pastor’s sermon says “Now to my favorite verse of the law: If a man lies with another man, he must be stoned to death” Too bad people aren’t doing that today, wink wink, at the gay pride parade tomorrow, wink wink.”
I think the chances of a pastor getting to that line is very very slim.
I can see your concern that a minister could lose his right to discriminate against gays in his ceremonies. You know, in Rochester NY, rabbis refuse to officiate intermarriages, and I haven’t heard of a lawsuit by anyone. That being said, I’m not sure the occasional minister being required to officiate is worth denying marriage to thousands of gays on a nationwide level. It’s the epitome of selfishness if you’d rather take the rights away 3% of the population over the occasional uncomfortable 2 hours of a minister here and there. It’s life consequences vs. the consequence of a couple hours.
If this happens, it’s a small price of freedom.
As for the bullying orthodox in Israel, if gay discrimination is completely legal, then what will a minister do if a gay couple walks into a bible class holding hands, pays the fees, and sits. If the minister wants them to leave, then he can legally call security and have the forcibly removed. He can even call the police and have them removed, purely for being openly gay. That is not the same as a member of the haridim bullying a missionary, but it’s a heck of a lot closer than it is now.
–Dan
P.S.– I’d be curious how you’d respond to what I said about Muslims having the right to discriminate against Jews and Christians.
Dan,
To set the record straight on the so-called Hate Crimes Bill, see the articles by Prof. Robert Gagnon at: http://www.robgagnon.net/ArticlesOnline.htm (the three-part article on Why a Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity “Hate Crimes” Bill Is Bad for You”; after that, read Why Homosexual Behavior Is More like Consensual Incest and Polyamory than Race or Gender). Gagnon is quite meticulous in his scholarship and logic.
Thanks Dr. Brown,
I’ll check that link out.
Any comment on the rest of what I’ve said?
–Dan
(Watched the video concerning “God Has a Better Way, and.. the current state of society when it comes to sexuality and gender”.)
Living in a liberal city I can tell you there does seem to be a new kind of intolerance going around. They like to think of themselves as “progressive”. The accepted ideologies for people in their mid teens, and 20+ age rage now are that of: Liberalism, agnosticism, Buddhism, postmodernism. They also show strong contempt towards what they call “ignorant”, and “non-accepting” people who don’t share their views. “Acceptance” is demanded at such a high extent that expressing, and acting out respectfully / peacefully to your own conscience
is grounds for condemnation. And therein lies true irony. “Acceptance” now becomes rejection.”
I regret that I can’t make it to the event, however, I will pray that God will draw many to repentance and faith in Jesus through your ministry. May you also be unmovable in the face of opposition!
Blessings to you!
Nicole –(1 Corinthians 15:58).
Nicole,
I’m not in your city (I’m in San Diego, myself), but believe you’ve had that experience.
I’ve met very intolerant atheists, as well as intolerant Christians. Most of the new age/buddhist liberals I know, however, aren’t non-accepting or intolerant. That would go against the very foundation of those Spiritualities!
There’s a reason why Buddhists/New Agers are generally not found in debates. You actually get in a lot more karmic trouble for judging as a Buddhist than as a Christian. You are also called on to be a light to the world, but not actively talking to people who aren’t ready for your message.
Just keep in mind however snooty someone is, unless they’re trying to take a right of yours away at the ballot box, they’re harmless.
–Dan
What if you people went and fed the hungry or cared for widows as the Bible suggests instead of harrassing gay people??? That would be a great idea!
Hello Jason,
The bible doesn’t place sexual purity at odds with giving to the poor and needy–we can do both!
Jason,
I agree with you 100% that poor needy widows would benefit a lot more from all the vast millions of campaign dollars from Mormons and Christians going towards anti-gay education and removing gay rights.
However, I think Dr. Brown and the rest of this community see gays as in much greater danger than any poor christian women, because the gays are going to sentenced to torture for eternity, and the needy will do just fine as long as they accept Jesus. We have to do God’s most important work and save gays from God. God really wants us to save gays from his torture. Is it an efficient plan? Well God said it so it has to be. *Shrugs.*
–Dan
I feel sorry for you and I hope one day you hear Christs message of love for all people.
Geoff,
Do you see GBW actions as unloving? Hateful?
Marc
Dan,
I was provoked in my heart by the tone of your comment here. I’m aware that you don’t believe the same way we do, and you’re welcome to share your viewpoint here, but people are being imprisoned, maimed, and martyred around the world as we speak because of their faith in Jesus, the same faith that you just made light of.
Perhaps this picture and text from Dr. Brown’s “The Bible and Homosexual Practice” video might be of help in understanding:
This is serious stuff Dan, and either we’re tragically mistaken or we’re right. Either way, this is nothing to be making light of.
I’m sure many here would love to discuss the concepts you made reference to in your comment, but I don’t think many of us would even dare broach the subject of the holiness of God or what it means to be eternally seperated from Him, in a light-hearted way. We are merely flesh and bone, the same as you are, and we tremble as we look upon these things.
Regarding Jason’s statement, I think Rob answered it well.
Oh to be faithful to our Lord, as the brother in the picture has been!
Hey Marcus,
I apologize if my tone was inappropriate for this board.
Your picture and quote, “people are being imprisoned, maimed, and martyred around the world as we speak because of their faith in Jesus, the same faith that you just made light of,” are exactly why I said what I said.
You believe in a God that would rather you have both your arms cut off than pretend for 5 minutes that you didn’t believe in him. As a Jew in Hebrew School, I was taught as an 8 year old that if you have a choice between getting shot in the head or bowing to an idol, you’re supposed to take the bullet.
While not all Christians take it this far, some I’ve talked to have been told by their parents that if they were kidnapped and about to be killed unless the parents denied Christ, they’d let their kids die. I called my mom (who’s still Jewish), recently and was very happy to hear that she’d convert to any religion on the map to save me if I was in trouble. That’s what love is.
The reason I “make light” of the eternal hell problem is that it has serious real world consequences, including that picture you just showed me. Aside from the lesser common physical violence a Christian can sustain for not renouncing faith, the hell threat leads to a serious stress on someone’s life. Do a search on google for “unpardonable sin” and you’ll see tons of stories from pastors who have people come to them extremely worried that they might be doomed to hell (despite told repeatedly otherwise). Do a search on “fear of hell” and see how many fervent believers are worried.
What’s more, Jesus says people will die believing they’re Christians and be unpleasantly surprised to hear he never knew them. Some apply this to Catholics and others would apply it to you and your own church. Since Jesus says your certainty on being saved is immaterial, you never truly know where you’re going until you die.
Even beyond that, you have the incongruency of feeling God’s love for you while knowing that he has a spot reserved with your name on it in the firepit should you ever lose your faith. It’s in the back of the Christian mind for all who don’t believe in “once saved, always saved.” I think every intelligent adult knows that someone infinitely powerful who loves you would find some alternative to eternal torment, even for the rebellious God-haters. You can’t love someone and allow them to be tortured for eternity. The two definitions are completely at odds. YOU might love the sinner, but God doesn’t.
–Dan
Dan,
I’ve been walking with the Lord now for almost 38 years, and I can tell you quite candidly that the fear of future punishment plays ZERO role in my desire to serve God and live for Him. He is my wonderful Father, and all His ways are good. I serve Him because I love Him, and there is nothing in the back of mind that thinks I need to do this to avoid hell. And I do not love Him because of His rewards or because of the promise of heaven. I love Him because He is wonderful.
It’s so painful for me to read your words, knowing that you do not understand the nature and beauty and wonder of God. THAT is the terrible loss, not the idea that you might be punished for rejecting Him.
I do not write this to condemn you or criticize you, but only to express my pain for you. I pray that one day you will truly know God as Abba and will revel in His presence like a little child in his daddy’s arms. And I pray that you will see the face of this wondrous God fully expressed in Yeshua.
Dr. Brown,
It is difficult for me to believe that you truly have concern for gay and lesbian people when you choose a few stories for your video and they involve beastility, pornography, and pedophilia. How can you honestly say (and believe?) that you are “reaching out to gays and lesbians with the compassion of Jesus” when you compare these people with the terrible things that you mention above? I am a young lesbian woman and it is video’s like yours that drove me from the church. Your video feels hurtful to me and I do not feel, see or hear compassion in your words.
And I appreciate that the intended audience for this video is your own church members and not people in the LGBT community - but it seems to me that if your message of love was genuine you would not portray gay and lesbian people out to be sex offenders who are out to destroy the rights of the church. The average gay or lesbian person just wants to be able to live their lives with the person that they love. Buy a house. Raise a family. And live happily ever after… just like everyone else. It seems to me that your video has done everything but paint LGBT folks as “regular people” and that makes your cries of “compassion” seem disingenuous. I will not speak for others, but your video is very hurtful to me.
And for everyone that will see it - who does not personally have a friend or family member who is gay they will walk away having heard … “those gays are trying to take away my rights.” When the reality is - we are just trying to have the same right to live our lives as everyone else.
- Hailey
Thanks Dr. Brown,
I totally accept and believe you affectionate wish for me on this issue. I know it’s completely out of the kindness of your heart. If ever you feel my thoughts are counter to this forum, say the word and I’ll respectfully vanish.
I remember in Answering Objections vol. 2, you said out of the thousands of Christians you’ve met, you’d never met one who stayed with Christianity out of fear of hell. Well, I’ve met more than several, ones who might have felt more comfortable telling the issue to someone with less traditional views, when I was a believer. I knew people from my Messianic synagogue that had their doubts about Yeshua but were afraid of entering the lake of fire. I know Christians that to this day say they stand by Christ because they want to make sure they don’t go to hell.
I know this is not your experience, and it’s not the experience of any truly happy Christian I’ve met. I believe you have a connection to spirit, one that is a lot more similar to extremely happy new agers and Buddhists than with Christians who are in fear. Fear actually is the opposite of spiritual connection, so it doesn’t surprise me how close with God you feel while not fearing hell.
You are a man of logic, and filled with spirit. To this, it forever befuddles me how you can claim the orthodox Christian God is one of love, when every rational definition, sign, and correlation of love is completely broken with the Biblical God. Your answers to objections 3.27 and 3.28 are the ONLY ones that do not satisfactorily answer objections to Christianity. This is not a fault on your part. Lee Strobel, J.P. Moreland, Norman Geisler, and a multitude of others have tried to answer this and none have succeeded. Even in your own book after saying Christians celebrate God with love, you remind us that there are big consequences for our sinful nature and should prudently pick the path that takes us to heaven, out of “healthy fear.”
The fear of hell was what started my spiritual search to begin with, turning in bed at night wondering if I was going to go to the flames forever. That’s why I started looking at Messianic Judaism. It was only when I was in deep enough to realize the structure of the whole religion had no evidence, that I was able to escape. Perhaps the fear was what let me grow out of biblical monotheism to begin with, so perhaps a necessary journey for me.
But there is no logical way one can say the Biblical God is loving. Even your statements of Christianity being “of infinite mercy” and “completely inclusive” are false based on your own description. Infinite mercy is by definition, without limitation, and would extend to everyone on this earth. Instead, it’s very finitely limited to a few who believe and act in God’s way. Completely Inclusive would mean everyone gets into heaven. However we know that in the Bible, it’s only people with the correct spiritual belief who pass. If you tried to walk into heaven believing in Christ as well as Zeus, you would be sent to the other place. Maybe it’s merciful and inclusive based on someone’s past before coming to Christ, but definitely not merciful or inclusive to someone who doesn’t die believing.
I believe your spiritual certainty is so strong, it can even overwhelm your passion for rational argument. You are the best of the apologists in this regard, however. Phd’s in philosophy like Geisler, Moreland, and Craig regularly make arguments that would not pass a Logic 101 class. You’ve kept to the best as anyone could.
But an infinitely merciful, all loving God, would find another way than to sentence most of the world to eternal torment. Just off the top of my head, he could make a second earth for non believers, equivelant to this one; He could extend Jesus’ supposedly infinite sacrifice to cover everyone on this earth, whether believed or not. Just as I can forgive someone who remains happy he hurt me, I’m sure God can do the same. The justice has been fulfilled on the cavalry, no? So there’s no reason for anyone to be punished. The people who suffer in hell, will do it because God wants them to. There are no two ways around it. If it was a “free will issue” he’d let them repent while in hell and change their mind, but I don’t know of anyone, short of a fictional C.S. Lewis story, who even entertains that idea.
The counter arguments to the Biblical God not being loving are “Psalms and Isaiah says he’s merciful, loving, slow to anger. Besides, he knows better than us.” If you think that God claiming to be loving while doing unloving things solves the situation, then I don’t know what to tell you. Similarly, a deity can be much stronger and smarter than you while still being evil. After all, isn’t Satan far, far, far above us in knowledge and power? Why don’t we assume he knows what’s best for us? Because we know he’s evil.
He does know better than us how the world works, but doesn’t have our best interest in mind. It’s the same for the Biblical God. He does evil, says he’s doing good, and we assume he knows better, probably because we are afraid that we have no one left to turn to. Zero logic involved.
Once again, if this is ever solved, I’m there. I think it’s impossible to defend the indefensible, and with a complete lack of other evidence, fear is the only thing that could bring me from a balance relationship with God that I have now, to an apparently false, judgmental, fearful, and shameful relationship with the Biblical God.
–Dan
Hailey,
Would you be kind enough to clarify a few things, and then, perhaps, we can continue this discussion next week when there will be more time?
1) I stated that gay pioneer activist Frank Kameny endorses hard-core pornography and approves of bestiality. Was that statement inaccurate? Is it right for him to be a hero of the GLBT community?
2) I referred to a pedophile case in England involving two gay men, faulting the social workers who were afraid to report what the men were doing because they didn’t want to appear homophobic. Are you denying that that fear exists today, where people are afraid to speak the truth about some homosexual abuses because they don’t want to appear homophobic?
3) Why isn’t the gay community outraged over the firing of Crystal Dixon, whose rights were taken away because she said sexual orientation is not the same as skin color? Why is the gay community of Canada applauding the silencing of Christian leaders there who have been banned for life from teaching what the Bible says about homosexual practice?
It truly saddens me to read your post, and I do care more than you might realize, so if you can answer these questions, that would help us dialogue better, OK?
Dan,
God is love, and if you knew Him, you would know that. The insuperable problem for you is that you don’t know Him, and I will pray that you will come to know Him. When you do, your questions will vanish in the wonder of His love.
Dr. Brown,
Thank you. I believe that God is Love too, and that’s why the Biblical God can only be fictional. I refuse to believe I can imagine a more powerful, more loving God than the one that exists.
Pray as you will, though I can tell you a lot of others need it more than me.
–Dan
Dr. Brown,
On an unrelated note to our previous comments, I can guess what a number of gays would answer to your questions to Hailey
1) Most gays and lesbians have absolutely no idea who Frank Kameny is, and the ones that do are likely unfamiliar with that quote, as Barack Obama probably is. If that quote slipped through the radar of his advisors, it probably slipped through the gay community who has far fewer resources. You might well call the Lubavitcher rabbi a hero for Reform Jews. They don’t know who he is!
The ones that do like Frank Kameny probably see him as an imperfect person, much like protestants see Martin Luther, who advocated much persecution in “On the Jews and Their Lies,” Yet has a whole church named after him who are not anti-semitic in the slightest.
2) The problem with the pedophilia example is that there is already much unwarranted fear from parents that the gay teachers and youth leaders are likely to be pedophiles. Using that example deepens the fear. You might as well use the example of a police officer in Ireland who let a black man drive away with guns in the car on the way to a robbery because he was afraid of the department being sued for racism.
The fact that social workers valued their jobs over the safety of the children they are sworn to protect says a lot more about the UK’s social work institution than gays being given too many rights. Beyond that, it didn’t even happen in this country, where someone is arguably more likely to be sued or jailed for putting a child into a known pedophile’s hands than punished for refusing the idea.
Besides, whether that fear exists or not, it does not lead to the conclusion of “gays having too much power,” anymore than the fear of sexual harassment suits (very often abused) should mean that a woman shouldn’t have protections in the workplace.
3) The reason why gays are not outraged as at the firing of Crystal Dixon is because it was a very legitimate board decision provided you read what Dixon actually wrote (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=82453). She’s VP of Human Resources for a university committed to fair treatment of all employees and students. For her to write that homosexuality is against God’s divine order, and that gays are being indignant for the “consequences” in this world to come from violating that divine order, creates major problems for a public university.
Gay employees and students will be very, very uncomfortable with talking to their VP of Human Resources when they feel they have been harassed or treated unfairly by other staff members. Any major corporation would fire someone in her position for an article like that. If she was a professor, then she probably could have gotten away with it. Professors write controversial articles all the time. But a Human Resources director? You need to be extremely impartial with that kind of position, and Crystal Dixon declared to the world she is a very biased person in regards to discrimination issues.
Hailey might have her own answers to these questions, which she is welcome to share. I am not speaking for her. The substance that really aggravates gay-friendly people from your video is that it comes off as if you believe there is a unified gay movement with it’s own officers and conspirators, plotting for the downfall of America.
The gay community doesn’t take a vote on Crystal Dixon, nor on whether teachers should teach about gay couples in kindergarten class. The gay community, by and large, just wants to be treated like heterosexual couples when they find someone they want to be with for life. There is also the irony of anti-gay people saying gays are very promiscuous, and then trying to forbid the one legal commitment you can take in this country to never have that happen again.
The gays are unified as much as the Jews are. There are ignorant people I know who think the Jews are all working together to take jobs from non Jews, suing for bogus discrimination issues, and a lot of other secret plots that sound like a modern Protocols of Zion. Some old private recordings of Billy Graham in the 70’s talks of the Jews “stranglehold” on this country. Talking about the “Gay Agenda” is very similar.
Until you understand and make it public that you believe there is no cumulative gay conspiracy, you are going to outrage every gay person who reads this and put them off.
You can’t reach out to Gays with the love of Jesus and pump up the fear of Christians against Gays at the same time. Love and Fear are at odds.
Plus, asking “Why doesn’t the gay community object to…” is such a rediculous question I can’t even name the fallacy. The gays are not a party like the Democrats, or even a church like the Espiscopalians. Community meetings they have are informal, and there is not a unified organization where they vote on what they’re outraged about and what they’re happy with. It’s hard enough for gays to march in public for their own rights, let alone for someone else’s. Have you seen an all black group march for Mormon rights? Or an all Asian march for policy on Sudan?
Unless you see huge parade in Los Angeles marching with signs saying “Love Won Out! Goodbye Crystal Nixon!” assume that you have no idea what gays are outraged by and what they approve of.
–Dan
Dr. Brown, Generally speaking I agree with Dan’s assesment of the questions that you posed me. I will respond with my own answers when I have some time to sit down this weekend & respond in detail. Thanks. - Hailey
One last point for Dr. Brown:
I know that this is not the forum for “Debate Dr. Brown,” so there are a number of reasons you may have not responded to my points about eternal hell being adverse to the statement “God is Love.”
Perhaps it’s because it is not the topic of this post, or perhaps it’s because of your own time constraints. You could possibly even be convinced I have closed the door on the issue, so your words would fall on deaf ears. However, I humbly believe my points are much more intellectually honest than anything Boteach has said in a recent debate.
Either way, you have concluded with a simple assertion: “God is Love, and I know God better than you or and any non-believer. Therefore, if you’re not a Christian, you cannot understand the love of God in creating hell.”
John Sheridan had said on another topic that God is Love, so anything God does is by definition loving, whether it’s hell or killing, or sending evil spirits to torment someone.
If this is the only reason that you consider hell to be fair, being that you have your inner spiritual conviction, then you can now understand why the rest of the world does not respect this type of thinking.
I’ve met Chassidim glowing with more holy spirit than just about Christian I’ve met. My local Chabad Rabbi was a dozen times more glowing with joy and spirit than my Messianic Rabbi, if that says anything, not that the Messianic Rabbi was bad. I think they’re both way off base, theologically, but the Chabad Rabbi was seriously glowing with spirit.
If you debated Rabbi Boteach, and he said “I know the prophecies don’t lead to Jesus because of my own connection to Ha’shem,” I think you’d chuckle a bit. I hope you realize that all 1500 pages of “Answers to Jewish Objections to Jesus” can be rationalized away by “I know in my heart that the Messiah has not come yet. I know God, and you don’t. If you followed all the mitzvot, you would understand what true peace with God is.”
So if you honestly cannot articulate how God is all loving, while eternal torments awaits the majority of his creation, but think it’s a matter of inner conviction knowing it’s affectionate, I’d appreciate you just admitting that it’s not explainable.
Otherwise, I’d appreciate you pointing to an equivalent source that could explain it with reasons you agree with, instead of “God is love and we can’t judge him, so therefore we can be sure he’s loving.”
Is there a logical solution to this issue that isn’t self contradictory? Strobel’s “Case for Faith” failed pretty hard in that endeavor, and haven’t found one that makes sense. The Christian Think Tank makes a few good points, but always ends up limiting God’s power in order to show he was forced to create hell, and was unable to come up with something better.
Once again, if you don’t think this can be understood without connection to Christ, then please say so, and I’ll respect it and not bring the topic up again.
Thank you,
Dan
Dan,
Thanks for the further request. In fact, time constraints are my biggest issue, but at some point I’ll refer to you some literature that I think fairly addresses some of your questions.
There is, however, another issue here, and that is that I have the deep sense that no amount of intellectual argumentation will answer your questions and that you need to have a personal enounter with God. And when you do that, your whole perspective will radically change.
Dr. Brown,
I have finally gotten a few minutes to address your questions. Here are my thoughts.
1) I stated that gay pioneer activist Frank Kameny endorses hard-core pornography and approves of bestiality. Was that statement inaccurate? Is it right for him to be a hero of the GLBT community?
First of all I would like to point out that – as Dan mentioned might be the case – I have never heard of Frank Kameny, as I am sure is the case with many people who are in the gay community. That being said, I took the time to look him up and found that he in fact has fought for equal treatment of people who are gay and lesbian since he was fired as an astronomer in the Army because of his sexuality in 1957. So as a member of the gay community I feel he has a right to be admired in that regard; however – if he does have, what most people including myself would consider, extreme views regarding “hard-core pornography” and bestiality – that would not be something to support. But the two are separate issues. You may feel differently, but being a civil rights activist does not make him a moral role model to follow. For example I can admire Charlie Parker for his musical genius, but disapprove of his drug use and life style choices. Even though I disagree with his drug use I can aspire to be like him in the way of musical ability and creativity. If you believe that Kameny’s ideas about pornography and bestiality are related to his sexual orientation then we cannot have a respectful conversation about this topic. So assuming that you don’t believe the two are related, it is particularly upsetting that you choose to bring bestiality into your video for two reasons. First, you bring up Kameny’s extreme views as if these are the reasons that he is seen as an important figure in the gay community when in fact it is because of his support of things such as anti-discrimination laws that make him respected in the gay community. Secondly – it seems when people opposed to gay marriage discuss why they are opposed to gay marriage they often make statements like, “if we let homosexuals get married, the next thing you know people will want to marry animals.” Which I hope you can appreciate is very hurtful to essentially compare the loving, committed relationship of two consenting adults to the relationship of a person and an animal.
I would like to point out that I found almost no references to Frank Kameny’s thoughts on pornography or bestiality, which likely why many aren’t aware of his thoughts on this issues. I found many more references about his work in pursuing equal rights for himself and others. I found the bestiality quote on two websites including “Americans for the Truth about Homosexuality” a religious organization dedicated to “exposing and countering the homosexual activist agenda” and “White Pride World Wide” a white supremacist blog. See…. my mention of the white supremacist group is unnecessary – right? And what were your first thoughts when you read that? That I was trying to suggest that people that reported on this quote, which would now include yourself, are racist-extremists? For the record I don’t think you are an extremist, but I feel like this is the type of manipulative message your video sends when you use an example of someone the gay community feels is a hero to their cause – and then tack on unrelated facts about bestiality and hard-core pornography. Why didn’t you use Harvey Milk or Ellen DeGeneres as an example of a hero to the gay community?
2) I referred to a pedophile case in England involving two gay men, faulting the social workers who were afraid to report what the men were doing because they didn’t want to appear homophobic. Are you denying that that fear exists today, where people are afraid to speak the truth about some homosexual abuses because they don’t want to appear homophobic?
I’m sure that in some situations fear exists of seeming homophobic and that is not good. Because there is a difference between being homophobic and “appearing homophobic.” Nobody wants to be seen as intolerant. I’m sure that it is hurtful when people say that you are intolerant because you think homosexuality is a sin. I think that you have every right to that opinion and I don’t think that makes you intolerant or bigoted. But the idea of the gay (equal) rights movement isn’t about taking away your right to have and share that opinion it is about making sure that YOUR opinion doesn’t affect MY right to live as an equal citizen in this country. And again bringing up an example of gay pedophiles seems to be used to re-enforce stereotypes that people in the gay community are more likely to be pedophiles and they are sick and perverted and something to be feared. That is the problem I have with your example. I don’t see compassion in these examples, but an attempt to make people fear gay people if they don’t act against us. Our fight is not against Christians, there are many gay Christians, it is for equal rights.
3) Why isn’t the gay community outraged over the firing of Crystal Dixon, whose rights were taken away because she said sexual orientation is not the same as skin color? Why is the gay community of Canada applauding the silencing of Christian leaders there who have been banned for life from teaching what the Bible says about homosexual practice?
I have to agree with Dan about the situation with Crystal Dixon. Her statement is her own opinion, but that opinion is in direct conflict with her job responsibilities. Most major universities include sexual orientation in their non-discrimination policies – so it would not shock me if her ideas were in fact in conflict with the policy that she is to up hold. I do agree that being fired is an extreme reaction; however would you feel differently if it was a religion teacher at a Christian school who wrote in a tirade about how God doesn’t exist? Would that be an appropriate thing for that teacher to do? That teacher is certainly in their right to have that opinion, but it is in direct conflict with the views that the school holds as important and is therefore in direct conflict with this person’s job. So would it be appropriate for this Christian school to react to this teacher’s public display of these ideas, which are contrary to that of the schools? I think so.
And perhaps people in the gay community are too busy being outraged about people losing their jobs for being gay or being kicked out of the military for being gay – to be outraged about people losing their jobs for other reasons.
Honestly – I know nothing about the Canadian gay community and I don’t like to make comments about things that I am not knowledgeable of – so I will reserve any comments about their treatment of the Canadian Christian community.
So – basically if your video’s purpose was about bringing Christians together to counter the gay pride event, but also to treat gays with the compassion of Jesus – then why wouldn’t you have just said, “we think there is a better way for people that identify as gay or lesbian to live because of how we interpret the Bible and we think that a change in their lives is what Jesus would want. So come join me and let’s pray for them and with them at this gay pride event.” Even though I would have not agreed with that message I would have seen compassion in it. I do not see compassion in a video full of examples that seem to portray people in the gay community as negative stereotypes to be feared and that is the message I saw in your video.